New 10k Road WR: 26:44 Leonord Komon

Atanvarno wrote:

100k

World record on the track: 6:10:20

World record on the road: 6:13:33

to be fair, where was that road? was it flat?

i for one would rather wear flats on a road than have to turn left 180 degrees 500 times

well paved, flat, no wind (or event tail- though komon said he felt some "breeze" out there) then yes, for distances over an hour, for sure. distances of 30-60min: i'd say it's a toss up dependent on the athlete in question. skinny runner, perhaps the spikes give an edge, but any sort of distance (i,e, 10k & above) starts to reverse that advantage and give more to the athlete with the cusioned shoe.

so yes, in many circumstances, yes they are faster.

Ventolin, yes I followed your link and agree that yesterday's record course indeed has many turns. But my point is about a hypothetical (and legal) road course that was one large flat loop compared to a track.

Now I'm sure you're right that "the rotational forces are only of significance at 8+m/s ( 100 - 400m runners ) on the track ( dependent on v^2/r. as you can see the v^2 component for a 10k guy is only 36, whereas for a 400m runner is 80 & a 200m runner is 100 )."

But could you please tell us what this means in simple terms and explain what empirical evidence it is based on?

Also, if turns are so insignificant for distance runners, then why are indoor track times (on 200m tracks) generally slower than comparable outdoor track times? The turns, of course. I suppose you'll say that the angles for 200m turns are vastly sharper than for 400m tracks, but it still suggests to me that there could be meaningful effects on a 400m track.

I'll be interested to hear what you think.

nice post

try this :

http://myweb.lmu.edu/jmureika/track/wind/200idx.html

click the 200m calc

you can't seem to get any change at precision 3 for 32.00s ( 26'40 pace ) between lane 1 to 8 - it's 0.001s difference

that means 0.05s difference over 10k ?!

let's just say it's not worth bothering with & the relative curvature between lane 8 & a straight track is likely little worse at such relatively low speeds

as for indoor, there is plenty of difference with 1/2 the outdoor radius

using jrm's calc, i got conversion factor of

~ 101/102

between the 2

( you have to add 0.1 - 0.2s to initial time for 200/400 races for degree of banking - not needed for 800+ races )

indicating :

- kip's 1'42.67 was ~ 1'41.7 solo

- komen's 7'24.9 was ~ same as his outdoor wr...

Ventolin, I just don't follow your logic here.

Why does wind speed in lane 1 vs. lane 8 bear on the topic we were discussing?

Is it that the angle of curvature in lane 8 barely differs compared to lane 1? Wouldn't that kind of an argument (if stretched) imply that the angle of curvature of a 200m track barely differs from a 400m track? But you do or don't accept that 200m tracks are slower than 400m tracks? I'm trying to read between the lines here but I'd really appreciate if you could spell it out for me.

look again

nothing to do with wind :

- enter 0 in wind box & constant location always

- vary lane 1 to 8 in that box

as for 200m tracks, i gave you a formula for 400 tracks extrapolated from jrm's seminal calculator on maple

don't ask this again otherwise i'll categorise you as a moron or troll

enough

Thanks for a great class Prof Ventolin - you're just too smart for me.

wow, ventolin truly is the class A idiot of letsrun.

Turns only slow you down at an exact cut-off of speed?!?! Too funny.

Of course they slow you down during 25 laps at 63 second pace. A straight 10,000 m race on a track would surely be faster. So obviously a trade off between better surface of track and less turns on a good, straight road course.

exactly.

for example

tyson gay ran 19.58 on a normal track

but a 19.41 on a straight track

this tells us put away your calculators and just run baby

lock and load wrote:Turns only slow you down at an exact cut-off of speed?!?! Too funny

moron

look up something about velocity of a function

a curve requires mv^2/r to negotiate it

for 200m guys it's still only ~2%

10.2 curves for a 9.8 guy who has to limit curve to 10.0 "effort" in order to save something for the stretch

the v^2 effort here is ~ 10m/s^2 = 100, for 2% slowing

a 26'40 guy is going at 6.25m/s, which is relative force of 39

for 10k guys the speed reduction woud be nearer

2 * 39/100 = 0.78% or 6s compared to straight

( mine is rough ballpark compared to jrm

i believe he states slight lean at lower speed can take care of almost all the 6s with negligible slowing )

no more anons wrote:but a 19.41 on a straight track

you do know it was run in near arctic climes as far as sprinters go ?

ventolin^3 wrote:

i believe he states slight lean at lower speed can take care of almost all the 6s with negligible slowing )

stop dodging questions...

he asked you do you agree that indoor tracks are slower then outdoor tracks. reguardless of the reason why.

Hint: I dont need a lengthing answer involving numbers.