Do any elite men see the 1500 and mile WR's as attainable?

only me wrote:

Alternatively, if we're taking races outside the Golden League when it suits us, we know EXACTLY what Lagat could have run for 800 in '01 - 1:48, which he ran indoors in Moscow, Idaho in Feb 01.

Either both marks are valid, or they are both out - you choose.

Ignore Ventolin, he's an idiot and will change the goal posts every time you stump him or expose his contradictions and inconsistencies.

ventolin^3 wrote:

only me wrote:

Baala ran his PB in Rieti - that's not Zurich, Rome, Berlin or Monaco so, by your own standards, it doesn't count.

it counts

but it may have been quicker in "Zurich, Rome, Berlin or Monaco so" with better fields/etc

where's bernie's 800m in rieti in '01 ???[/quote]

Holy cow dude, i've always thought your stats were interesting but never had any idea what a madman you were.

This is running man, not a computer program. Lagat ran a ton of quality 800's over the years and came nowhere NEAR 1:43.

Several college kids ran faster than his PB in eugene in the wind month ago. Eugene is not known for setting the fastest times in the world for distance races. So if all these college kids go to europe we are suddenly going to have 8 college runners at 1:42-1:43? (I say 1:42 because 3 of them have run faster than Lagat ever did and your saying lagat was a 1:43 guy).

Wake up dude, the guy just wasn't a great 800 man.

epopians wrote:Ignore Ventolin, he's an idiot and will change the goal posts every time you stump him or expose his contradictions and inconsistencies.

moron

i see your peabain is incapable of understanding running in quality euro 800 races in big meets

if those college kids put down a 3'26 i'd immediately expect a 1'43-flat from them when they go to the top euro races

Why do you keep asking the same questions to people who you consider to be fools? If you seek the answers from such people then surely that makes you an idiot as well!?

Where is it set in stone that only a random few meets that YOU choose are worthy of fast times? You don't need a stacked field to run a fast time. Sorry, let me re-phrase that;.... you don't need any sort of opposition to break a rather PEDESTRIAN and second rate time of 1:46.0. Most half decent 2 lap runners should be able to run that, any time of the year. Certainly someone with alleged "1:43" capability should be able to run 1:45 at least, in his sleep!

"there are only 2y in bernie's career where WE are interested in his 800 ability in '01 & '04 when he ran 3'26 & 3'27 respectively - the latter he ran a 1'46.96 as a leg stretching exercise in april - he ran the same flying last 800 in athens !"

Is that the royal "WE" you're using there or are you holding yourself up as the representative of everyone on here, you arrogant muppet!

To be honest no one is interested in what was Lagat's potential ability, had he the right pace, the right field, the right bloody city, blah, blah, blah!.....was. We are merely pointing out that despite running on the circuit in decent fields, in 1:44 races, he was not only well beaten by several (has he actually ever won an 800m in Europe?) athletes, including Konchellah and Kipketer (crap fields there then! ;0)), but he couldn't even stay close enough to them to break 1:46.0. None of your bullshitting changes the FACT that he hasn't even approached the 1:43 you claim he's capable of.

Your biased is laughable. On the one hand you argue the toss that Coe was capable of no more than 1:41.5 in 81, that Florence ( which wasn't a good track, and had a weak field - the exact same variables which you claim caused Lagat to run slower!) was his absolute peak, despite being in early June, and despite having no opposition.

You quibble over any suggestion he could run more than 0.2 sec faster, yet then maintain that someone who hasn't broken 1:46 could run 3 secs faster if he'd had pace, a good field and a top track! You make yourself look an idiot.

You can't have it both ways. If you can cut seconds of someone's time by stating they would have run those times had they better pace, or a stacked field or a fast track, then you are in NO position to argue with others when such factors are taken into consideration to evaluate another athlete's potential.

And since when does the fact that Lagat ran a 3:30 in such a year mean that was his absolute limit!? Again, such ramblings contradict yourself and make you look stupid.

You say we can't take a 1:46 800 time for him in a season when he ran 3:30 (because he wasn't as good as 3:26) as evidence of his inability to run 1:43, but when he runs 1:46.8 during a 3:28 season, that's because he didn't run the 800m as fast as he was capable!

You're basically saying that when he runs 1500m he runs at his potential each season, and that he was a 3:26 athlete in 01, a 3:28 athlete in 00, a 3:30 athlete in 03, etc. BUT, whatever year he ran his fastest 800m he was capable of 3 secs faster!?! Utter nonsense!

I'm suprised you have not bought up El G's 1:43 in training. As if someone who could run that in training would never run an 800m!

"no need to

there's a witness to it in the wiki discussion section"

So you're happy to believe whatever Moroccan sycophant wrote down on Wiki as evidence that this is true!? I bet the majority of Morocco's population was there at that training track that night!? Moron.

Unless this person was ratified as an official timekeeper with the IAAF, and had an electronic timing device strapped to him with video evidence, it's not worth a crock of shit. Such comments are merely heresay and embellishment.

Was the track ratified by the IAAF? Was there an electronic timing system? Did he have a fresh rabbit taking him every 100m? Was there no one there taking a home video if he was trying to run his fastest?

ukatleticscoach is far better informed than yourself and lives in the real world dealing with real athletes, rather than some dark fantasy void where numbers and mathematical formulae rule over rational thinking. There is a place for stats and I agree that even pacing is most desirable for fast times at 1500m.

ukathleticscoach hit the nail on the head exactly, when he said that if EL G could run sub 1:43 in a training run, he would have been running plenty of them on the circuit during his career. He didn't because he knew he'd get beat by guys running 1:44, which would dissolve his impression of invincibility. And he knew this because he never ran sub 1:43 in training and was never capable of it in a top class field on the circuit either.

What I was looking for when I first posted this thread was not whether it WAS actually attainable, but whether any of the elite actually SEE it as attainable.

I'm a middle distance idiot--maybe they ALL see them as attainable, I don't know. They look pretty whacked to me.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'realistically, to run 3'26.0, you have to have ~ 1'43-flat ability as a pre-requisite'

So how did Lagat run 3:26 with a 1:46 800m?

That alone would point to being on peds; being able to redline for a much longer period of time

ishuffle wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'realistically, to run 3'26.0, you have to have ~ 1'43-flat ability as a pre-requisite'

So how did Lagat run 3:26 with a 1:46 800m?

That alone would point to being on peds; being able to redline for a much longer period of time

That's exactly what makes me suspicious! Both 3:26 runners have 800 pb's outside 1:46. One runs them every year but can't break 1:46, the other never runs them internationally, but is quite happy to run them to near WR standard in training and get everyone there to shout about it all over the world. Strange behaviour!

because there are only 2 particulars fools who are so stoopid to not comprehend the concept - you & that other numbskull

moron

i'm not interested in pedestrian 1'45s - i'm interested in his absolute flat-out limit & that means in his 2 peak 1500 years

show me his elite euro 800s in those 2y moron !

imbecile

it is the WE of discerning fans

moron

where were those 800s in summer of '01/'04 on euro circuit ???

unknown track which i never heard of anyone run on before or after & a timing system which broke down

i have little faith on whether that was a legit 400 track or timing

moron

coe was a career 800 runner - by far his best distance - it's the distance he was expected to run thruout the year - bernie was a 1500 runner who ran occasionally at other distances

idiot

seeing as noah a comparable 1500 guy off 3'43 ran mid-1'44 en-route to the 1kwr & morceli a slower by 1s 1500 guy ran a 1'44.7 when he was a 3'31 guy, & without even comparing with baala, i see no problem at all for 1'43 for bernie

what are you drivelling on about ???

if you can claim he was a 3'26/3'27 guy in his 3'30 years then go ahead, but you will look even more of a moron than you are

moron

are you incapable of the most basic analysis ???

the year he ran mid-3'28, i'd have expected a mid/low 1'44 from him in a zurich &/or rome &/or berlin &/or monaco

complete & utter f***ing moron

turn his 3'30 years into 3'26/3'27 ones ?!

i said 1'43 in '01 or '04 in elite euro races - how stoopid are you you can't understand this ???

imbecile, i'm more than happy to take that guy's statement of his 800 ability than your peabrain drivel :

YES 1 42 70 is his best time at 800, he did it in a training Session in stade moulay abdellah (Rabat), early in the 2002 Saison, how do i know that? am a morrocan athlete from rabat, training in the same track where elguerrouj used to live and train at age 16-18 and in the same track where this performance (1 42 70) was done

he gives the year & location - what do you offer in opposition ???

even if timing was 1/2s out it is what was expected of hicham

moron

no one is claiming an auto time - 1/2s out wouda been good enough

yes - it's where they hold the moroccan gp every year

i doubt it

1/2s out on stopwatch is good enough - no one is claiming he was a threat to 1'41.1

immaterial

if he was racing a peak kip/bungster or bucher they wouda been ahead of him for every m of the 800m same as any fresh wabbit every 100m

contact him

i didn't think there was a bigger moron on this site apart from yourself - to my surprise there is - your partner in drivel

read wiki history & disprove it :

Elguerrouj was supposed to participate in the 800m in zurikh 2002, but at the last moment he decided to make a world record attempt for the 1500m

a race won by mutua in a not particularly frightening 1'43.3

epopians wrote:That's exactly what makes me suspicious! Both 3:26 runners have 800 pb's outside 1:46. One runs them every year but can't break 1:46, the other never runs them internationally, but is quite happy to run them to near WR standard in training and get everyone there to shout about it all over the world. Strange behaviour!

moron

name the theoretical pharmacological action of any drug which can allow you to run 3'26 but only 1'46 ???

amaze us

Cram and Coe both looked capable at their peaks of running faster than they did, whether due to windy conditions (Cram's 1k) or lack of competition. With El G's pacers, I've no doubt that 3:28 at least was available.

Webb's pr was 1:46 until 2008, when he ran 1:43.8. Maybe Lagat too never got into a fast 800 when he was ready for one and not running 800s just to get ready for fifteens. So, if Webb dropped that much time that quickly (getting injured in that pr race), he might have gotten down to 1:43. Still, his 5000m credentials are not great (13:10, at the height of a good season). If he gets down to sub 13 next year, maybe we will see 3:28.

ventolin^3 wrote:

if those college kids put down a 3'26 i'd immediately expect a 1'43-flat from them when they go to the top euro races

Well lets see, they are already at or better than Lagat for 800, despite not racing in Europe so following you're logic they are 1:42-1:43 in (which meets exactly?) Europe and therefore 3:26 runners. Hell I'll even soften it and say some will fall off to as slow as 3:30.

The U.S. is undoubtedly the mid distance powerhouse of the world now.

LOL! I thought you'd seen every big race on the circuit for donkeys' years?

Aouita ran at the same meet in Firenze for the next 3 seasons, including a WL 3:32.54 in 1983 and an AR of 13:04.78 in 84.

Clearly you don't know or have seen as much as you make out! Did they suddenly expand the track for these later great performances!? ;0)

Err...

Coe was an 800/1500m runner. His first success was a bronze at the European Juniors in 75 over 1500m, and he managed to pick up 2 Olympic golds at the distance. He also had the potential of running around 3:26-27 in 81, based on even splits in Stockholm, which is comparable to his 1:41 800.

He was equally good at both, whereas 3:26 and 1:46 are aren't in the same year group.

One thing's for sure. Coe ran a vastly superior 1500 than Lagat ran an 800m

[quote]ventolin^3 wrote:

YES 1 42 70 is his best time at 800, he did it in a training Session in stade moulay abdellah (Rabat), early in the 2002 Saison, how do i know that? am a morrocan athlete from rabat, training in the same track where elguerrouj used to live and train at age 16-18 and in the same track where this performance (1 42 70) was done

he gives the year & location - what do you offer in opposition ???

even if timing was 1/2s out it is what was expected of hicham

/quote]

And we all know that Moroccan athletes are so sincere and honest and never tell lies! This is such a reliable source. LOL.

The fact you go on about a probable 1/2 sec discrepancy practically admits that you hold little faith in the provenance of such a tale yourself. If you can cope with/expect a 1/2 second discrepancy, why not a second?

You can't claim pb times on training runs unless it was officially timed. The time doesn't stand up to any type of scrutiny.

ventolin^3 wrote:

it counts

Then so does Lagat's 1:48 indoor in 01. We have an answer to your question, and it isn't 1:43.

Let's take the supposing a bit further: 1500 is nearly twice as far as 800, and 3,000 is twice as far as 1500. If Lagat has run his 3,000 PB in 2010, why has he only run 3:34 for 1500?

Is it because you can't be in shape for 3,000 and 1500 simultaneously? If the answer to that question is "yes", then why do you suppose that he could be in his peak 800 and 1500 shape simultaneously?

Let's look at the evidence (real evidence, not made-up stuff): Coe 800 PB in 81, 1500 PB in 86; Ovett 800 PB in 78, 1500 PB in 83; Kipketer 800 PB in 97, 1500 PB in 93; El Guerrouj 800 PB in 95, 1500 in 98; Cruz 800 PB in 84, 1500 in 88; Rodal 800 PB in 96, 1500 in 97. Cram ran both his PB's in 85, and Webb ran both his in 07, but they're the exceptions, most don't run them in the same season, so why should Lagat?

The 800's he ran in 01 and 04 seasons are irrelevant - just because he was at his 1500 peak doesn't mean he was at his 800 peak.

He ran in a fast 800 in 03, and that's his PB - no need to "suppose" anything.

& no performance of any note run on it before '81

aouita clearly believed that he coud also take advantage of a suspect track & dodgy timing to also sneak a wr or 2

err...

so what ???

bernie was an exclusive 1500m runner with very few forays up or down

eh ???

they are as sincere as any other ones moron

i have plenty of faith in the tale & the 1/2s error is on my part as i wouda been quite satisfied with a hand-time of 1'43.2 as the 1'42.7 quoted - it woud still give the required info - i e he was a credible threat in the post-peak kip era

1s timing error is absurd - you woud have to be an inept moron on your scale to be that far out & that is not the profile of a coach who moulded history's greatest 1500er

the details of the race ( you can fetch them youself ) :

hicham's coach was deciding with him in '02 whether or not to add the 800 to his races as he wanted to consider doubling in athens, which of course he did but with 5k instead of 800

there was only 1 other person in the race - the moroccan 400 champ who was the wabbit

hicham was dragged thru in <50 & wabbit kept going until 500m when he dropped out & hicham ran a last lap in ~ 53s

my own interpretation is that a 3s differential is too fast for history's greatest 1500er & i suspect he made the naive mistake of keep chasing a faltering wabbit who was very unlikely going at 8m/s between 400 - 500m & as a result, lost plenty of tenths - i'd expect if he'd taken over at 400m the time wouda been nearer 1'42.0 end than the 1'43.0

drivel

no one is claiming a pb for him for a training run, just ballpark indication of 800 ability

if you think an indoor 800 in february in shitsville run probably against one toothless redneck & their combo sister-galfriend is the same as running an 800 in zurich in august then you are clearly clueless

err...

because he's dropped the 1500 for most intents & purposes & is now a 5k/3k guy ?!

the answer for him is "no", as he is now in shape to simultaneously run 3k/5k pbs NOT 1500/3k pbs

if you follow this sport then you wouda known :

ovett's peak year was '78 & he set 800pb & 2 miles wr - he was capable of 3'29 that year if he'd chased it

coe was past his peak by '86 when he set his 1500pb

kip/cruz/rodal ??

are you seriously using those as evidence of doubling ???

laughable !

drivel

for an almost exclusive 1500 guy at that point in time & no specific 800 training in his life, his 800 ability wouda been best when he was fastest at nearest distance to 800 - the 1500 - that means '01 or '04

do i even need to be pointing this out ???

ah yes

1'46.00 when he ran 3'30.55sb

as you like simple maths, lets do it :

difference between 3'26.34 to 3'30.55 is 4.21s

prportioned to 800m = 2.24s

so we have provisional 1'46.00 - 2.24 = 1'43.76 for his 800 in '01

There is no evidence of that.

2-mile WR progression:

8:14.0 Lasse Virén (FIN) 1972-08-14 Stockholm, Swe

8:13.8 Brendan Foster (GBR) 1973-08-27 London, UK

8:13.51 Steve Ovett (GBR) 1978-09-15 London, UK

8:13.45 Saïd Aouita (MAR) 1987-05-28 Turin, Ita

8:12.17 Khalid Skah (MAR) 1993-06-30 Hechtel, Bel

PBs:

Lasse Virén ????

Brendan Foster 800m 1:51.1 (1972) 1500m 3:37.64 (1974) (http://www.uka.org.uk/e-inspire/hall-of-fame-athletes/brendan-foster/)

Steve Ovett 800m 1:44.09 Praha 31/08/1978 1500m 3:30.77 Rieti 04/09/1983

Saïd Aouita 800m 1:43.86 Köln 21/08/1988 1500m 3:29.46 Berlin 23/08/1985

Khalid Skah 800m ???? 1500m 3:38.10 Stockholm 02/07/1992

Ovett is the only one who set PBs at both marks (or indeed at any of the three marks) in the same year, so there is no reason to speculate on what he could have run for 1500, because there is no evidence to show that he was capable of anything more than what he did.

No, I'm not. I am using them to show that being at your 800 peak is not the same as being at your 1500 peak, something they demonstrate much better than your silly calculations.

And 2:07:18 for the marathon - are you suggesting that he would have run that also. 800 and 1500 are not the same events, and you can't be in peak shape for both at the same time. The actual times of actual athletes prove that.

You can make up silly calculations all you want, you are just making yourself look (even more )stupid.

You know, I generally like your posts. They're interesting. However, you've managed to look like an utter fool during this debate. (By the way your overuse of moron, drivel, imbecile and idiot only make you look like the moron, imbecile driveling and idiot. Ad honorem doesn't generally make yourself look knowledgeable or vaguely informe)

Look, you're trying to argue that someone with a PR of 1:46 was capable of very significantly faster. Yet he never ran 1:43 in years of high level racing. I'm sure there's all kinds of cute excuses that allow you to be right, but uhm, people don't generally go from 1:46 to 1:43 (ignore Webb, he's all over the place and not a very good example of anything other than what not to do.)

There's a point where we can pretty much say you're as good as your PRs. There's not one shred of empirical evidence suggesting that Lagat could run anything other than about 1:46. There's extrapolation, formulas, and comparing him to others, but there's simply no actual evidence to be had. He raced at 800m far too many times to pretend it was always the result of missed opportunities. Nope, let's be honest and close the book.

Another athlete this reminds me of is Adam Goucher. I always thought he was a sub 13 person. And maybe if he'd stayed healthy... but really, he never did it. So while he might've had the talent, he's not and never will be. I can argue that because he beat BK, and BK ran sub 13 Goucher was somehow a sub 13 but that's frankly appallingly bad logic.

How Lagat ran 3:26 off of 1:46 will always be a bit of a mystery. Maybe he mentally and physically is perfect for 1:46 pace and no faster and that's how he closed the Olympics at that speed. The only thing it is completely clear is that he never ran 1:43. Not only did he not run 1:43, he didn't run 1:44 or even 1:45. Please stop the indefensible argument.

No one can disprove you because you're arguing he could have done 1:43. Obviously, he might have been able to. He might've been able to run 1:40 and 3:24 in a perfect alternate world. Unfortunately, we don't live in that world, we live in the world where he ran 1:46 and 3:26. In this world, we assume those are roughly as fast as he could've run. Or else he probably would have run faster at some point along the way. So please stop arguing for hypothetical times that are far from what an athlete ever ran. It's a tired and boring argument.

Agreed brother, there is no general consensus that El G was doping. Greatest Track Athlete in history, period.