Kaki is going for world record in 1000m

under laboratory conditions... he has an outside shot. considering the kid cant touch the 800 record, the 1000 is a more impressive mark, and he can't bring the heat when it counts, i'd have to say: fat f***ing chance

ventolin^3 wrote:

nonsense

the 1k is much closer to 800m than 1500m

1k is 200m from 800m but 700m from 1500m

ballpark inference then is that 800m speed is 3.5 more important than 1500 endurance

any guy who can run 1'42 has some serious endurance issues if he can't run a 2'12 if he has a coupla decent shots at it

Ventolin, you obviously meant that 1k is 500 meters from 1500. Therefore, your inference would be corrected to 800m speed being 2.5 times more important than 1500 endurance.

Either way, it appears that if you are able to run sub 2:12, it would be rather surprising if you couldn't run 3:32...You'd have to be a true 400/800 guy, as I would think even Kipketer, who might have been able to run sub 2:12, would then probably also run a respectable 1500 if he had a few cracks at it...

He can definitely touch and break the 800m record with the right race

ventolin^3 wrote:

red arrow wrote:8 of the top 10 are 1500m runners

ehh???

try

5 of the alltime 10 performers are 800ers

& of coe/ream as 1500ers, coe's 800 time has stood up infinitely better than his 1500 & even cram's 800 has fractionally over his 1500 on alltime performance list

NO!

Only Kimwetich and Khaki are pure 800m runners. Coe and Wohlhuter were 800/1500 runners, while Cram, Baala, Morceli & Ngeny were specialist 1500m runners.

Both Coe and Cram were capable of 3:28 at least, and the reason their 1500 times haven't stood up as well as their 800 times would seem pretty obvious. Their times would be pretty comparable to anything run in the last 5 years; it's just that grey period from about 94-05 that makes their times less impressive.

He cant bring the heat when it counts? You are such a moron, The guy is two times world indoor champion, he had some bad lucks but i would never ever say Kaki cant bring the heat when it counts.

With a 1:42 800m PB, Kaki has every reason to believe he can run the 1000m record, or at least aspire to it.

No one will ever get this record with even splits. Out in 50+ at least.

ventolin^3 wrote:

nonsense

the 1k is much closer to 800m than 1500m

1k is 200m from 800m but 700m from 1500m

ballpark inference then is that 800m speed is 3.5 more important than 1500 endurance

any guy who can run 1'42 has some serious endurance issues if he can't run a 2'12 if he has a coupla decent shots at it

doesn't work like that. The 600m, for example, is much more like the 800 than the 400--it's not a 50-50 split. It's an energy pathways thing, not a percentage/distance thing.

Agreed, Kaki doesn't have the endurance to get it. He isn't as good as Ngeny was, or Coe for that matter. The record will still stand after the race is done

observer of coverage wrote:

Jesus Christo...those are the absolute worst splits I've ever seen.

25-26-25-29-27?

Hell no.

Best way is to go 52-52-26. Guaranteed.

No one likely can or ever will run those splits. A 1000 taps the same energy systems and aerobic percentages as the 800, not the 1500. Properly run, it is an almost all out 800 and then hanging on for another half lap. Not a kick of 26 at the end. Look at the the top races all time. They were split this way.

Ngeny's 2:11.96

-1:44.6 + 27.2

Coe's 2:12.18

-1:44.56 + 27.62

The place to get back the time on the WR is in the first 800. 1:44 low followed by 27. As stated by others, Ngeny and Coe were better than Kaki or Rudisha to this point, so it ain't going down at Pre. Rieti maybe.

joel wrote:

observer of coverage wrote:

Jesus Christo...those are the absolute worst splits I've ever seen.

25-26-25-29-27?

Hell no.

Best way is to go 52-52-26. Guaranteed.

No one likely can or ever will run those splits. A 1000 taps the same energy systems and aerobic percentages as the 800, not the 1500. Properly run, it is an almost all out 800 and then hanging on for another half lap. Not a kick of 26 at the end. Look at the the top races all time. They were split this way.

Ngeny's 2:11.96

-1:44.6 + 27.2

Coe's 2:12.18

-1:44.56 + 27.62

The place to get back the time on the WR is in the first 800. 1:44 low followed by 27. As stated by others, Ngeny and Coe were better than Kaki or Rudisha to this point, so it ain't going down at Pre. Rieti maybe.

Agreed. Shouldn't Ngeny's splits be 1:44.62 + 27.36 though!?

Not only did he run it in Rieti, but he had the advantage of being drafted to nearly 750m. If Kaki can have someone take him to 800m in 1:44.5, before dropping out, he should break 2:13, but still don't think he'll get the record.

I think it's as strong as the 800 WR.

You're right, my Ngeny splits are slightly off. Basically he and Coe both split 1:44.6, and then Ngeny hung on slightly better than Coe.

The 1000 record is crazy tough. Look how it compares to the 800 for indoor vs. outdoor. Three seconds difference vs. one and a half.

fdasfsdafd wrote:doesn't work like that. The 600m, for example, is much more like the 800 than the 400--it's not a 50-50 split. It's an energy pathways thing, not a percentage/distance thing.

we can get proper estimates from these trying :

for the 1k, lets try some benchmark 800/1500 ability :

1'43.00 / 3'30.00 ->2'12.74

now, lets change the 800m by 1s & see what 1500 time required to maintain this 2'12.74

improve 800m to 1'42.00

1'42.00 / 2'12.74 ->3'33.39

therefore 1.00 improvement in 800 allows 3.39s slower 1500 or ratio of

3.39

now, try alternative : slow 800m by 1s to 1'44.00

1'44.00 / 2'12.74 ->3'26.58

therefore 1.00 slowing in 800 requires 3.42s improvement in 1500 or ratio of

3.42

it therefore appears 800m ability is close to 3.5 more important to the 1k event than 1500 ability is

fdasfsdafd wrote:doesn't work like that. The 600m, for example, is much more like the 800 than the 400--it's not a 50-50 split. It's an energy pathways thing, not a percentage/distance thing.

for the 600m, lets try some benchmark 400/800 ability, say :

46.00 / 1'44.00 ->1'14.26

vary the 400m by 1s :

45.00 / 1'14.26 ->1'45.41

therefore a 1s quickening over 400m allows 1.41s slowing over 800 to maintain 600m time or ratio of

1.41

therefore 400m ability is 1.41 more important to the 600 than 800 ability

slow the 400m by 1s :

47.00 / 1'14.26 ->1'42.57

therefore a 1s slowing over 400m requires 1.43s improvement over 800 to maintain 600m time or ratio of

1.43

therefore 400m ability is 1.43 more important to the 600 than 800 ability

in conclusion, 400m ability is ~ 1.5 more important to the 600m than 800m ability is

the way to intrepret is if a guy wants to improve his 600m, he will gain more from working on 400 speed than 800 endurance

Hi Ventolin:

A few questions:

1) Since Ryun also was an 800 world record holder, would you classify him as 800 guy, 1500 guy, 800/1500 guy, or something else?

2) Does the calculator that you use give a similar result for a really slow athlete, say with 400/600/800 bests of 75, 2:00, 2:49? These times are approximately equivalent on the IAAF scoring tables?

3) Regarding your calculations on other threads about how much faster an athlete would have run if they had run even splits, have you seen this study?

http://jps.physiology.jp/en/archive/physiolsci/56/1/103/

Seems like one or perhaps more of Ventolin's posts have either been removed by the site or himself!

Perhaps he's realised the mistakes he was making.

any guy who runs a wr has to be considered at to have dual capabilities - so an 800/1500 guy

in fact, he ran that 800wr as a junior & a year before his peak year of '67

i don't know if he ran any 800s in '67 but on basis of improvement he made over 1500 in '67, he almost certainly was in 1'43-flat shape at worst in '67 on those shitty tracks

1'15/2'00 ->2'47.10

close enough for you ?

not sure how relevant that is

my calcs on even-pace are based on :

&

(physics)#Power

at elite levels, athletes are essentially close to "perfect machines" & those methods have relevance

ventolin^3 wrote:

fdasfsdafd wrote:doesn't work like that. The 600m, for example, is much more like the 800 than the 400--it's not a 50-50 split. It's an energy pathways thing, not a percentage/distance thing.

we can get proper estimates from these trying :

http://www.jundo.co.uk/

for the 1k, lets try some benchmark 800/1500 ability :

1'43.00 / 3'30.00 ->2'12.74

now, lets change the 800m by 1s & see what 1500 time required to maintain this 2'12.74

improve 800m to 1'42.00

1'42.00 / 2'12.74 ->3'33.39

therefore 1.00 improvement in 800 allows 3.39s slower 1500 or ratio of

3.39

now, try alternative : slow 800m by 1s to 1'44.00

1'44.00 / 2'12.74 ->3'26.58

therefore 1.00 slowing in 800 requires 3.42s improvement in 1500 or ratio of

3.42

it therefore appears 800m ability is close to 3.5 more important to the 1k event than 1500 ability is

This post clearly shows one thing: ventolin only understands statistics. He doesn´t know what "energy pathways mean".

This post clearly shows one thing: ventolin only understands statistics. He doesn´t know what "energy pathways mean".

Yes, plus the very basic mistake that 1500 is almost twice as long as 800, so the proportional slowing is not comparing 1s in the 800 to 3.4 in the 1500 but would have to involve comparing 1s in the 800 to 3.5/800/1500 or 1.81s.

well. wrote:This post clearly shows one thing: ventolin only understands statistics. He doesn´t know what "energy pathways mean".

err...

there is no point drivelling on about "energy pathways" or some other pre-med biochemistry without actually attempting to numericise the end result of the biochem - putting some hard numbers on the table...