The Worst Race Tactics Ever?

Ok, but then maybe no one has successfully done what Scott tried (lead for the last three laps in an Olympic 1500 final)? And by the way, I admire the hell out of Scott, ran against him in cross-country in high school, he annihilated me.

asdfasfasfds wrote:

Elliot and Rono both lead for the last 800 meters or so.

z runner wrote:

Outside of Keino in Mexico City 68 (which was an aberration due to the altitude), has a runner ever won gold in the Olympic 1500 by taking off early, building a big lead and "holding on"?

weIInow wrote:

I think most competitive runners would prefer to be coached by SS (or his coach) than someone who advocates not taking chances at success.

I could never figure out why so many pick on you here.....until this!

He took a huge chance at failure with that move. Even if he had waited for a lap or so, his chances of success would have been much greater.

Skuj wrote:

I could never figure out why so many pick on you here.....until this!

He took a huge chance at failure with that move. Even if he had waited for a lap or so, his chances of success would have been much greater.

On the other hand, it has always been obvious to me why so many here do not like you.

A pessimist like you would agree that you take a "chance at failure" every time you toe the line. I prefer to be more optimistic and look at it as a chance for success. SS clearly tried to improve his chance at success with that move. Might it have been more successful later in the race? Perhaps. But one cannot reasonably argue that sitting back in the pack for the duration -- which was more likely as the race progressed given the speedsters in the field -- would have been a wise move. To me, the longer he waits, the more it plays into the hands of the kickers. I believe an early move was warranted and I give SS credit for taking it to them.

It is better to have loved and lost, then never to have loved at all.

I think there are two things going on here:

skuj: That move reduced Scott's chance of winning

defenders: well, maybe, who knows. But as spectators, Scott's move gave us someone to admire, and isn't that the fun of being a fan? Watching Haile time trial Berlin is, well, uninspiring. Watching Scott take a long shot against his preordained 5th place...well, that's courageous and what makes sports interesting.

z runner wrote:

Ok, but then maybe no one has successfully done what Scott tried (lead for the last three laps in an Olympic 1500 final)? And by the way, I admire the hell out of Scott, ran against him in cross-country in high school, he annihilated me.

Well, the thing is it has worked at lower levels. Look at Lee Emanuel in this year's indoor mile. He took the lead with 900 to go and pushed his way to a 2 second victory.

Been trying to find video, stupid NCAA doesn't make it available.

O NoYou Dit ent wrote:

K Bekele in the olympic 5000, basically turned it into a 200 against El G

Gave El G the Gold

worst ever

This is the one that always comes to my mind, although Bekele's win over Lagat at the world championships last year made me wonder if I've judged him too harshly for his seemingly similar tactics in 2004, especially since El G had shown, in the 2003 world championships, that (1) he could run a fast 5000 and (2) he could be outkicked by a 5000m specialist.

Of course, there have been many worse race tactics in lesser circumstances.

Johnny Gray seemed to have a whole career of bad racing tactics, but maybe he knew that he didn't have the fast finishing ability of others. I never really thought of Steve Scott as being a horrible tactician, simply because I never put him in the same league as speedsters like Coe. What could he possibly do to win a major championship against guys who had all the tools?

Sometimes, there is a thin line between tactics that are later assessed as bad or brilliant. Did Wottle wait too long in the 1972 Olympic 800 final? Did Ngugi surge too early and aggressively in the 1988 Olympic 5000 final? Winning tends to discourage second-guessing; losing brings out the critics in droves.

Skuj wrote:

The 1500m is the hardest race to lead. It's just fantasy to think that you can win by going into the lead after 400m, off a decent pace, with Coe and Cram in there.

Do some homework, Skuj, and look up Paavo Nurmi in the 1500 at the 1924 Games. And before you tell me Coe and Cram were not in that race, take a look at who WAS.

Peter Rono did it!!

Tormenter, we are talking 1984. Actually, hahahaha.....discuss who WAS in that 1924 race. Tell us about them! Go ahead. :)

Reality checker wrote:

Skuj wrote:

The 1500m is the hardest race to lead. It's just fantasy to think that you can win by going into the lead after 400m, off a decent pace, with Coe and Cram in there.

Do some homework, Skuj, and look up Paavo Nurmi in the 1500 at the 1924 Games. And before you tell me Coe and Cram were not in that race, take a look at who WAS.

Skuj, you uneducated buffoon. Learn the history of your sport.

haha, YO (super serial) wrote:

Skuj, you uneducated buffoon. Learn the history of your sport.

Tormenter, tell us all about these people. Thanks. (I'm eagerly awaiting.)

1. Paavo NURMI (FIN) 3.53.6 OR

2. Wilhelm SCHARER (SWI) 3.55.0

3. Henry STALLARD (GBR) 3.55.6

4. Douglas LOWE (GBR) 3.57.0

5. Raymond BUKER (USA) 3.58.5

6. Lloyd HAHN (USA) 3.59.0

7. Raymond WATSON (USA) 3.59.9

8. Frej LIEWENDAHL (FIN) 4.00.3

haha, YO (super serial) wrote:

Skuj, you uneducated buffoon. Learn the history of your sport.

Tormenter, tell us all about these people. Thanks. (I'm eagerly awaiting.)

1. Paavo NURMI (FIN) 3.53.6 OR

2. Wilhelm SCHARER (SWI) 3.55.0

3. Henry STALLARD (GBR) 3.55.6

4. Douglas LOWE (GBR) 3.57.0

5. Raymond BUKER (USA) 3.58.5

6. Lloyd HAHN (USA) 3.59.0

7. Raymond WATSON (USA) 3.59.9

8. Frej LIEWENDAHL (FIN) 4.00.3

haha, YO (super serial) wrote:

Skuj, you uneducated buffoon. Learn the history of your sport.

Tormenter, tell us all about these people. Thanks. (I'm eagerly awaiting.)

1. Paavo NURMI (FIN) 3.53.6 OR

2. Wilhelm SCHARER (SWI) 3.55.0

3. Henry STALLARD (GBR) 3.55.6

4. Douglas LOWE (GBR) 3.57.0

5. Raymond BUKER (USA) 3.58.5

6. Lloyd HAHN (USA) 3.59.0

7. Raymond WATSON (USA) 3.59.9

8. Frej LIEWENDAHL (FIN) 4.00.3

haha, YO (super serial) wrote:

Skuj, you uneducated buffoon. Learn the history of your sport.

Tormenter, tell us all about these people. Thanks. (I'm eagerly awaiting.)

1. Paavo NURMI (FIN) 3.53.6 OR

2. Wilhelm SCHARER (SWI) 3.55.0

3. Henry STALLARD (GBR) 3.55.6

4. Douglas LOWE (GBR) 3.57.0

5. Raymond BUKER (USA) 3.58.5

6. Lloyd HAHN (USA) 3.59.0

7. Raymond WATSON (USA) 3.59.9

8. Frej LIEWENDAHL (FIN) 4.00.3

Oh shit how did that happen, hahahaha.....sorry.

Skuj wrote:

weIInow wrote:

Despite Skuj's unfounded criticism of Steve Scott, I must agree with Nobby here. When one does not have the turnover to outkick even the most modest of opponents, one must go to the front and work to open up the largest possible gap on the field. Steve Scott and his coach knew his limitations -- and his strengths -- and forged a courageous race plan to give him his best chance at gold. This is basic coaching and elementary racing strategies. I'm surprised Skuj did not recognize it.

Do you seriously think that leading in a fast 1500m, with 1100m to go, is working to your strengths and limitations in a field like that? He was going to run away from those guys (and help them a great deal too!)?

His 10th place finish was almost predictable once he made that move at 400m.

**************************************

Skuj, you're being trolled, but not by me. Your stalker is a moderator.

(I know that "My Tormenter" is not a mod here. You have one that IS a mod though.)

Tormenter, please do tell us about all those who raced Nurmi in 1924.....I'm still waiting. Thanks.

I thought we both had the same stalker, JK?

Rono ran the last 800 or so which is slightly different than the last 1100. If you don't have the fast last 100, then the extended kick is the way to go. From about 800 out you can do the long kick. From 1100 you tend to end up with a medium 400 (57-58) that just strings out the field and makes it easier for the followers. If you wait until 600-700 to go, it puts a lot of pressure on the followers to be in the right spot. If they are boxed or a bit slow reacting they can be the couple tenths back. That being said you could run the 1984 olympics a dozen times and Scott isn't going to win more than 1 or 2 of them. Coe& cram (and ovett if he wasn't sick) were just a fraction better than him on most days.

Captain Track wrote:

Peter Rono did it!!