Marathon Training Thread - Week Ending 4/18

Well I'm back from Boston. Got home in record time. Boston,MA to home on LI in 3hrs 20minutes.

Ran a 2:52:33. I would give it a 8 out of 10. Using auto-lap and following a 2:50:59 pace bracelet cost me a 2:51 or even a 2:50. I don't think I had 2:49.

I breathed in my water at mile 16 where I couldn't even breathe (That was a little scary). Took me 100-200 meters to catch my breathe. Right at the base of the first hill.

I ran like a metronome. Not too fast, not too slow. Didn't push it on the uphills, really didn't push it on the downs either.

Miles were 6:36, 6:30, 6:21, 6:24, 6:31, 6:23, 6:24, 6:30, 6:21, 6:32, 6:32, 6:18, 6:28, 6:28, 6:38, 6:14, 6:44, 6:43, 6:38, 6:44, 6:55, 6:29, 6:33, 6:30, 6:33, 6:35, 0.45 in 2:44 (6:05/mile pace).

5ks in: 20:09, 20:18, 20:19, 20:19, 20:11, 20:55, 20:54, 20:35, 8:53

Miles 15, 18 and 26 are a little slow for my liking. I'm mad my last 5k wasn't closer to 20:00. It is amazing how many people crash on the this course. I passed hundreds of people from probably 16 in. I wish the BAA had a way to sort times each 5k like they had in Chicago.

So I was within my 2:49:59-2:52:59 goal time, but I wish I was on the lower side. I'm wondering how much harder it will be to break 2:50 in NY in November on what I think is a tougher course than Boston.

I'm already confident that I'll be trying to run 6:20's next year in Boston.

AK, that's pretty funny. I'm sure I was one of the ones who didn't look so hot. My head was cocked back and I was halfway in tears for a long time. My legs were so cramped, there is no way I looked even a little decent. Thanks for being out there, though. As I reflect on the race, the biggest thing I'm upset about it missing a beautiful opportunity to run well with respect to the weather. Who knows when we'll see such good conditions again! Oh well, just need to deal with the hand that is dealt, control what we can, and hope for the best.

I feel a little ridiculous posting my results on this thread of only fast guys, but thanks for humoring me.

Goal was 3:05 - 3:08. I felt I was in great shape and my goal might've even been a touch conservative. Sadly, it was not to be.

Hit the half in 1:33 feeling great (nice even effort early...nailing each split within a few seconds). Was fine up until about 18 when I got a minor side stitch, which quickly progressed into horrendous cramps throughout my core. I couldnt believe it was happening - and was cursing myself for not doing more core work.

I could barely even maintain a jog at this point, and was closer than I'd care to admit to dropping out. I couldnt let myself do it, but shuffling through those last 8 miles was the most painful thing I've ever done, running or otherwise. I had to look like holy hell because 3 separate times Medics came up to me asking if I was ok. Ended up "running" 3:20...which is obviously really disappointing.

Chalk up another Boston first-timer casualty I guess. I'll be back for another shot at some point, maybe not next year or the year after...but I can't let that disaster be my only Boston experience.

A serious tip of the hat to all you faster guys though....awesome job.

Who will do Boston again next year?

As I've mentioned before, I really view my competitive career coming to a close in NYC 2011. My original plan was to run Chicago this fall, then take a break and train for a fast 1/2 next winter/spring, before gearing up for NY in the fall.

I want to do what will give me the best chance to run fast in NY. Part of me thinks that taking a break from marathoning, after doing 3 within 11 months, will be good for me. But part of me also is mad about how Monday went, and I want to give Boston another try.

The plan I am toying with is as follows. Opinions welcome!

Spend this summer getting a ridiculous base, crush Chicago on October 10th. Take 2 weeks off.

After taking 2 weeks off, I'll have 12 weeks prior to the Naples, Florida Half Marathon. So maybe after the post Chicago break spend 5 weeks building up to 90 or so mpw, then do 1/2 marathon specific training for 6 weeks (keeping mileage in the 90 range), then do a 1-2 week taper for the Naples Half and try and run fast.

If I run decent, take 5 or so days off to recoup. I would then have 10 weeks before a Boston taper.

Figure spend 4 weeks working up to the 100 range (70, 80, 90, 100), then 6 weeks of marathon specifc workouts before a 2-3 week taper for Boston.

If I run bad at the Naples half, then make the decision of trying for a fast half at the NYC half in March, and foregoing Boston, or maybe even running Boston off of 1/2 marathon work.

I think this all makes sense... or am I trying to cram too much in? I actually think mini cycles like this may help me rather then hurt me, but opinions welcome!

Congrats to all the finishers. It is always tough. You guys sound like you gave your best and lots can happen when you are out there. I'm off to the podiatrist for a cortisone shot for a mildly sore achilles, with the Pgh. marathon 10 days away. I'll be on the ellitical untl then.

2TM - I will run Boston until I can't. For us in the Northeast, its the best race around and can be one of the fastest. I'm more scared about running NY than Boston. You've done them back to back, what do you think? Which one is faster? Do I have any shot at running 2:49 in NY in November..

Why do you think your competitive runner carrer is over at the end of 2011. Is this due to work/family goals or age?

My plans (if the wife lets me is) and ultimate goal would be:

1. Fall 2010: NYC 2:49:xx

2. Spring 2011: 2:46:xx

3. Fall 2011: 1. Chicago or 2. Dublin or 3. NYC (got my NYQ in Boston on Monday). If Chicago 2:43:xx

4. Winter 2012: Houston 2:41:xx

5. Spring 2012: Boston 2:39:xx (First race @ 40)

Is this possible (timeswise) probably not. There has to be a limit to my improvement versus age. But since Boston 2008 I've gone 3:20,3:15,3:01,2:58,2:55,2:52.

I need to get faster at the shorter distances though. Thats the goal this summer. 18:47 5k and 38:17 10k PRs aren't going to cut it anymore...

pablo wrote:

Mile 5 - 5:59, Not quite sure what happened on this mile, I don't remember there being any uphills to slow me down. I guess I just had a brain lapse.

I don't think anything happened to you here. I had exactly the same experience. That mile was ten seconds slower than the previous one with the same effort.

In fact, looking back over the 6 previous Bostons I've done, mile five has ALWAYS been at least ten seconds slower than the previous mile, except for 2002 when it was only 4 seconds slower.

Another, you can do ALL of that. For sure!

To answer your 1st question... A little of everything you said. I have 2 little ones (son is 3 in May and daughter will be 2 in August) and once they can ski I would like to make most winter weekends family ski trips. I also quite like golf, and think that is also a fun family day, so plan on introducing them early to that.

I can't imagine waking up at 5:00 on the weekend to get in a run and then go skiing all day or golfing all day. Just doesn't sound appealing. As it is, I only run on weekends when my kids nap. We have a routine where my son crawls into bed at like 7:00 on weekends, and we watch Blues Clues or Sesame Street then make pancakes or french toast. That's possibly the happiest part of my week. Once they stop napping, I'm not sure when I'll WANT to go running. Not morning, because I don't want to disrupt that routine. Not when they're awake because I hate spending time apart from them on weekends.

I have been running for so long, I figure with 3 years dedicated to marathon training, I should be fairly close to my potential. Could I get faster with more years of sweat and toil? Maybe, maybe not. But that's OK. There are other things I want to enjoy that are more focused around family activities.

For your second question. NY is definitely easier in my opinion. You don't get the downhills, but I think that can hurt you in Boston as much as help you. In NY, you get a few long uphills, but its not really rolling. I found Boston to be very rolling. I didn't find 5th Ave and CP to be nearly as bad as people say. The hardest hill by far was the 59th street bridge, I thought. Everything until then seemed pretty easy (terrain wise).

Anyway, that's all I've got for now. Back to catching up at work...

2ndTimeMarathoner wrote:

Who will do Boston again next year?

As I've mentioned before, I really view my competitive career coming to a close in NYC 2011. My original plan was to run Chicago this fall, then take a break and train for a fast 1/2 next winter/spring, before gearing up for NY in the fall.

My competitive career will come to a close when I'm dead.

Regarding your schedule:

If I were you, I would do Chicago OR Naples. Not both. I think that's a bad idea. Spend the time that you are NOT training for one of them concentrating on other distances, to give your body a change. Too much consistent marathoning leads to getting a little stale.

This is, of course, just me projecting my personal experiences on to you. Take it for that only.

Track Meat - I think yours is one of the more interesting tales. I'm going to try to keep it in mind any time I feel "off" early in a race, it doesn't mean the day is lost!

I ran Boston back in 2002 (no real training plan and fighting IT issues) in 2:58 high and have been inspired by you guys (and some local running buddies) to try it again with a purpose next year, so I think I'll be there.

I posted this in the other thread, but will copy and paste here as well:

In short, my experience this past weekend was remarkably frustrating.

I started to feel achy on Friday when I got to town, but I brushed it off as fatigue from work, traveling, life, etc. Saturday morning I got up and went for a three mile run, and I felt dead. On Sunday I woke up feeling tired, and decided to skip the run. By Sunday night, I knew in my gut that I was coming down with something, but I did my best to ignore it hoping that I could "will" myself to feeling better.

Monday morning I woke up and felt miserable. I slept like garbage, and was completely void of any energy. Usually on race morning I'm alert, eager and ready to roll. I knew something was wrong, but I was hoping that the excitement, adrenaline, crowds, etc., would push me through the race. The ride up was nice, but I was struggling to stay awake!

Got to the 4000 corral, and went over the plan in my head. I really felt that I was in shape to go under 3:10. It was a very realistic goal based on my previous two marathons, and the training to date.

I made it through nine miles. I was about 30 seconds off my mark at this point, and then I just ran out of steam. I then walked / jogged the next 17 miles back to Boston. It was miserable. I thought about dropping out multiple times, but kept going, convinced that I could get some positive experience out of this situation. When I got to Boston College, I was able to do more running than walking, and crossed the line at 4:18 (to give you an idea of how bad it was, they had already adjusted the finishing clocks to reflect the second wave runners).

I made my way through the gear check, and then went back to my room to shower and take a nap.

I was starving so my girl and I went to Charlie's right by Boylston and grabbed some dinner. As we were walking back to our room after eating, there are still a few people making that final stretch to the finish. We start to hear a bunch of police sirens, horns, and people cheering. I look back and I see this wheelchair participant who is pushing himself to the finish with just one leg. He was severely crippled, and was accompanied by a couple of guides. By this time, it’s nearly 7:00 p.m., and my math tells me he’s been out there for at least nine hours, presuming he started at 10:00. It really put things into perspective, and I quit feeling sorry for myself on having a crappy day. I’m still frustrated, but gone is the anger and feeling of being “cheated”. It's true what they say....no matter how bad you think it is, someone else has it a hell of a lot worse.

I still feel groggy, but gone is the fever. Fortunately my time from Chicago last fall gives me another shot at Boston in 2011, so I'm looking forward to redemption.

Congrats to all the participants. It's an incredible experience, and I'm fortunate to have done it three times. There's nothing else like it, and it's something I'll always remember.

Average_Joe wrote:

If I were you, I would do Chicago OR Naples. Not both.

Ooops, my mistake. I thought Naples was a full marathon. Now I see it's a half. Nevermind...

Far From Average Joe, this coming from the guy who tried/wanted to race indoors before focusing on his Boston prep. HA. Just joking with you. I'm definitely doing Chicago... no doubt about that. I guess I'll register for Boston and Naples (which is a half), see how the recovery from Chicago goes, and then leave my options open. I still have a while til I have to decide anything, and the immediate focus needs to be on recovery and then Chicago.

To make it easier for the cheering squad in Chicago, I am now officially making my handle 3TM. AK, that one is for you!

AJ, so you think my post Chicago plan looks solid?

3TM - I understand about the family. I know that it takes some family time away... I gave up golf. I sucked at it anyway.

Man you are going to love the Chicago course. I like to describe the course elevation as:

___________________________________________________________/

With that / being a 20-30ft bump at mile 26.

If I would suggest you do at least one long run that is pancake flat. I mean no elevation changes bigger than 10ft. There is something to be said about using the same muscle groups for 26.2 miles. I sometimes did a 22 miles out on Dune Road in the Hamptons. Now that is flat.

Great stories coming in. I was surprised with my slow time at mile 15. And my slow time for mile 19. I think at mile 19 I was still scared of the two hills ahead. Out of the 4 hills, the 1st one is long but not that hard, 2nd one is steepest, 3rd is just the 3rd and you just want to get the 4th one (HB) over with since its all downhill from there.

I HATE that little bump after you crest HB.

Another wrote:

My plans (if the wife lets me is) and ultimate goal would be:

1. Fall 2010: NYC 2:49:xx

2. Spring 2011: 2:46:xx

3. Fall 2011: 1. Chicago or 2. Dublin or 3. NYC (got my NYQ in Boston on Monday). If Chicago 2:43:xx

4. Winter 2012: Houston 2:41:xx

5. Spring 2012: Boston 2:39:xx (First race @ 40)

Is this possible (timeswise) probably not. There has to be a limit to my improvement versus age. But since Boston 2008 I've gone 3:20,3:15,3:01,2:58,2:55,2:52.

I need to get faster at the shorter distances though. Thats the goal this summer. 18:47 5k and 38:17 10k PRs aren't going to cut it anymore...

Another, you are a pretty cool guy! Those are great goals and i think you can achieve them. 2:39 before you are 40 will make you a badass! I know it is a silly rule of thumb but i like the "2 hours plus age" rule. i think there are a few guys on this thread who own this (Avg_Joe, motorbreath?, marmite?, ebirt og?). Great goal.

For me, i would love to hit 2:50 when i am 50. I've got 5 years to get there. I'm not sure if it is doable but i can at least visualize the pace (6:30), that is basically my current half marathon speed. So all i need to do is enhance my endurance. Which leads me to my question. If the marathon is mostly an aerobic event, then is it wise to focus on working on the shorter distances now? Isn't it more efficient to work on aerobic capacity?

I was wondering when you would make the switch.

Nice races. This has got my blood pumping and I'm looking for a fall marathon.

2ndTimeMarathoner wrote:

Far From Average Joe, this coming from the guy who tried/wanted to race indoors before focusing on his Boston prep. HA. Just joking with you.

Yeah that wasn't very bright of me. This year I specifically did NOT care about or focus on indoors and, as should have been obvious last year, it helped alot

Chicago is my favorite marathon for running fast.

3TM wrote:

To make it easier for the cheering squad in Chicago, I am now officially making my handle 3TM. AK, that one is for you!

AJ, so you think my post Chicago plan looks solid?

Sure it sounds good to me. Especially now that I understand Naples is a half! The only way I run differently is that I don't set targets for the buildup. If I feel good, I get up to goal mileage very fast - in as fast as two weeks sometimes. Other times, I'll take 5 to 6 weeks to get up to the highest mileage. I think that once you have a few miles under your belt, you don't need to be so careful in the buildup and can go more by feel

I also am sure to take a cutback week every 3 to 5 weeks. For me a cutback is 50 to 65% of peak mileage. I rarely feel like I need it but I take it anyway. But I am also 42 now. If I were 22, maybe I wouldn't need it. Not sure. I can't remember the 22 year old me, anyway. I read his training logs and wonder what the f**k that dumb kid was thinking...

Everything I've learned about marathon buildups has been through doing the wrong thing first so maybe I shouldn't be giving advice, except on what NOT to do.