When, if ever, is it moral to leave your wife if you have children?

marriage counselor: see one.

However, amateur analysis: you're totally wrong about the strong male presence thing, but so long as that's your starting premise, guess what: it doesn't have to be you. You're not the only guy in the world. She'll find someone else.

NObama........................ wrote:

Here's a tip.

Why don't you be a man about it work it out with your wife. Just because you're bored with her (and she's bored with you to if she told you she'd kill her self) then YOU need to step up to the plate and try to bring something fun. If you look for her to make you happy you're SOL. Be a man grab you balls talk to your woman like a man tell her what you need ask her what she wants and then find a happy medium.

You are an example of the further pussification of America!

The shallowness of your intelligence on this topic is even below your usual simplistic limp brained, black and white thinking claptrap...

Bring something fun?

How about serious couples therapy, and serious couples education?

Secondly, a friend of mine is a very similar predicament; and his wife is acting off the charts like an unstable personality and an emotional lunatic. --You won't find a more "man up" guy than this; and yet the wife finds every way to attack him at any and every angle she can think of.

While he remains calm, positive, focused on the good of the children, positive co-parenting -- while the life has a WW3 personality crisis because he has stopped being a "European gentleman," and started owning his balls, asking for what he wants (basically speaking his truth to her) and she is responding like a child out of control with rage, in any and all manipulative attempts to get her unilateral power back.

He got them to couples counseling, with a great counselor, on the third visit she flew into a nuclear rage screaming at the therapist and raging and stormed out swearing to never return to therapy.

Then, when she's all raged out, exhausted, she comes crawling back to him wanting to be cozy, affectionate and make love.

--You are assuming this dudes wife is SANE.

Threats of suicide in a marriage are not solved by "spicing it up a little bit."

Recipe for FAILURE: Follow "NObama's" counsel.

You people think life is a dress rehearsal for you next life? If you are unhappy with the situation get the hell out. Take care of your kids. You owe no one an explanation and that includes your crazed wife.

Again thanks everyone for weighing in.

Get Real Real--holy shit, do we know each other???? You pretty much described my situation exactly (except replace the word European with Southern). Crazy.

Old man runner--wise words.

I think Get Real Real offers good advice. With children involved, I think it's worth it to first seek professional help before moving out. You sound like you want it to work and that you have been trying to make it work, so you might as well give counseling a try. If your wife's behavior is an indication of anything, I'd be warned that counseling will likely reveal things about your wife's past that will be very difficult to deal with, mostly for her but also for you. If you suspect she has a troubled past, don't be afraid to ask her about it. It'll show that you care, but will also open the door for her to talk about something that she's likely kept hidden for a long time. I've been through it and it completely sucks, but once we understood why she acted like she did (which was very similar to what you describe) it made complete sense. Our relationship is 10X better than it ever was and my wife is happier than she's ever been in her life, all because of what was revealed and dealt with during counseling. I believe that people with opposite interests can love each other, but you also need to respect each other.

senorfrog wrote:

I am no doctor, but I can't really be mad at her because I feel like all her crazy shit is the result of some PTSD or something from seeing her dad beat her entire family her entire life (but which is also why I take her threats seriously).

Just read this part. I think you know the problem.

I also like the advice about going to a counselor by yourself. We both did that before couples counseling, and I think it did wonders for us.

I love it when people think they are smart and "experts," but miss the obvious.

1. He should get counseling on his own.

2. THEY should also get counseling. WHY? To lower the drama from the angry mom, and help have a chance at a healthier more peaceful home for the children while whatever is worked out is worked out.

3. He should keep a private diary, some place safe, like at work, handwritten, with dates and incidents of her outbursts and craziness. This can all be used in a custody case.

He should make a long term plan to get out and take the kids with him.

She might actually be happier, having the stress of raising kids removed from her life.

When she severs your penis.

dear op:

first of all, wake up and realize that morals and religion are not real. they are only as real as the individual makes them, and in reality they dont exist at all. god, morals, and religion are NOT science. u need to leave all that imaginary bullshyt out of ur love life, and wake up and smell the seaweed. u are becoming unhappy and unhealthy, that is the REAL issue at hand.

im assuming u love the child that you have. theres nothing wrong with that, and i understand that love may never change. u no longer love your wife, and thats all there is to it. she doesnt HAVE to be in ur life. just leave.

as far as ur son is concerned, leave ur marriage out of it and figure out if u really care about seeing him/and or financially supporting him on a VOLUNTARY basis. do u think ur wife is going to sue u for child support if u leave her?

the main thing is that you get away from ur wife and start seeing other women, and only continue seeing your son if u wish. figure out what YOU want. if that bitch wants to sue you for child support, just let her and see how far she gets. other than that, just go ur own way and start loving and fuccing somebody who will respect you and treat you right. ur child will always exist, but ur unhappiness doesnt have to continue for 1 more solitary second.

please begin to entice some serious self analyzation, take a college science class that teaches you whats real and whats not real (obviously you have no logic because your bringing ethics and morals into your personal happiness) and grow up and move on with your life. you are still young, yet have wasted so much of your life on this beeotch already.

There are many brilliant, logical people who have significant scientific understanding who believe in God and objective morality. This claim is empirical, and obviously true. I will not justify that God exists or that morality is objective – there are many excellent books written on this subject by philosophers. If you would gain the truth on these matters, consult the words of those who dedicate themselves to training their minds, not the words of those who devote themselves to the training of their bodies (not that physical training is bad – it is a great good. It is just not as conducive to coming to understanding on these perennial issues.)

The title of your post reveals that you already believe in objective morality. Good for you. Don’t succumb to the advice you’ve received to throw your virtue away.

I think there is wisdom in thinking about what is good for you in this situation. But I think that what would be of great good for you would be if you were able to maintain your character and be a virtuous father and husband, that your wife would recover from the terrible afflictions of her past and learn to properly love you and your children, and that you were both able to salvage your relationship and learn to love one another with the kind of self-giving love that you were both made to have for one another.

I think your own actions in posting to this message board reveal that you already know what your best course of action should be now – seek counsel. But don’t ask this motley crew – you have no idea whether they care about your good, or whether they offer sound advice (I am not exempted of course). Go seek the council of those you believe to be wise and those who have been trained to aid people in your situation.

I wouldn’t trust a counselor who does not believe in morality. Your virtue is vital to the value of the good that is your life. If you act on the advice of those who would have you believe that virtue is of no consequence, you run the risk of sabotaging your future opportunity for genuine love. You run the risk of leading a life completely focused on and turned in on your self. You cannot love this way. Peace be with you.

when she stops givin brain

Leave her. Now. Your child will grow up better with two parents who show him all the attention, care, and love in the world than two parents who are together, hate each other, and hate their lives. Think about the environment. It's not a single parent raising if both parents are in their lives. I've seen people who see their dads all summer and some who haven't seen their dad's in 15 years to life. The ones in the 15 years to life category had parents that tried to stick with it until something awful happened. The ones that talk to their dads every day on the phone and see them for spring break and summer break and maybe christmas are the ones whose parents decided early that their lives were unlivable together. Be stubborn, don't listen to me, hate your life, ruin your life. Be smart, settle for the unfavorable (and yes, unfavorable means seeing them for a specific duration at a specific time, far apart, rather than ever day), enjoy a lifelong relationship with your children that will still give you the bachelor's freedom that every man enjoys, except when your kids are in town and then it's all about them.

Work out the child arrangement before the divorce. See a lawyer before the divorce. You're not trying to pull anything over on your children's mother. But women are absolutely mentally crazy, every single one of them, and they WILL try and pull something over their children's father. She might try and put you through every bit of hell she can imagine. And the courts favor that. So try and work things out before the battle. That's how wars are won.

have her get an abortion if you don't want another

senorfrog wrote:

She has anger management issues that can lead any disagreement into a volley of insults and threats to kill herself, to kill me, or to kill our child.

Assuming this is true you haven't seen an attorney or a doctor on her behalf?

Take control.

It's tough all over man. My wife of 25 years moved out last week. 2 kids. Oldest is a college freshman, youngest in HS. She was a stay-at-mom for the longest. I'll do what I can to get her back. She says I don't love her but that's not true but I would admit to being distant. Old-school Clint Eastwood style men in my life growing up. Something a bit more topical, I started running in middle-age (now sub3 masters) and she never really got it.

senorfrog wrote: I am no doctor, but I can't really be mad at her because I feel like all her crazy shit is the result of some PTSD or something from seeing her dad beat her entire family her entire life (but which is also why I take her threats seriously).

You sound like such a sensitive fellow. I'd happily beat you to a pulp myself if your wife doesn't get around to it. Keep us posted.

Without reading the thread, and off the top of my head, the ones that jump to mind are if he wanted her to get an abortion and she refused, if she lied to him about being on birth control, or if association with him would do damage to the mother or children.

the430miler wrote:

please begin to entice some serious self analyzation, take a college science class that teaches you whats real and whats not real (obviously you have no logic because your bringing ethics and morals into your personal happiness) and grow up and move on with your life. you are still young, yet have wasted so much of your life on this beeotch already.

GLAD UR BACK!