The reason is that Norpoth did not have the strength for faster paces or longer distances. Did he ever run a fast 10k?
His trainingm and competitive, times dropped off greatly as the repetitions and distances got longer.
The reason is that Norpoth did not have the strength for faster paces or longer distances. Did he ever run a fast 10k?
His trainingm and competitive, times dropped off greatly as the repetitions and distances got longer.
I've never seen a race time for him in a distance longer
than the 5000.
There is a thread somewhere in which van Aaken stated that Norpoth did not like to run as long a distance as van Aaken would have preferred. That same thread claims that Norpoth never ran longer than 24 kilometers.
He competed in the 1500 in Mexico City and the 5000 in Tokyo and Munich. At one time he held the 2000 meter world record. Why would he want to race above a 5000 with so much success in lesser distances?
Norpoth ran cross country races but said he never ran a 10,000 on the track because he got bored with all of the laps.
history in the making wrote:
I stand by my statement of Norpoth however. He was a week whimpy runner, who always sat and never had the strength to push the pace on his own. Granted that was not Van Aaken's issue but Norpoth's.
You're standing behind a rather stupid thought process. "sitting" is a tactic. That is all.
history in the making wrote:
The reason is that Norpoth did not have the strength for faster paces or longer distances. Did he ever run a fast 10k?
His trainingm and competitive, times dropped off greatly as the repetitions and distances got longer.
So do a lot of guys who's primary events are the 1500m and 5000m.
history in the making wrote:
dsrunner has the day off wrote:Most of VanAaken's ideas, like most of Lydiard's ideas are now a good bit behind the times and should be read more like an outdated history book, with some perspective.
I agree.
Vladamir admittedly did not run well at all, so what can he offer of benefit.
Norpoth did not have any endurance, despite the (slow) endurance type of program. He always relied on his kick, even following when he ran against Prefontaine, who had no use for him because of his whimpy attitude.
Oh, another HS Pre wanker.
An interesting thing about Norpoth was that he only trained once a day, usually covering anywhwere between 10-20km in one day. He did not like to double. Also his recovery runs were quite steady, around 4.30 per km. Most of his quality came from track repetitions.
His training, was the opposite to what the Kenyans do. In other words, his method was 2-3 quality sessions on the track each week, with easy runs in the forest in between. On the easy runs, anyone could follow and talk with him, from 32" to 37" mins 10k type runners.
Dieter Baumann had a similar training method with Norpoth. When Baumann went to train in Iten, he said that he could not match the level of intensity day in day out that the Kenyans produced, starting with the morning runs, which started out slow, but always ended up 'eyeballs out.' Horses for courses.
Norpoth could have also excelled at soccer, despite his extreme ectomorphy (bmi <18) and played at just below the top league level. In his later years he became a qualified referee. He always said soccer was his first love.
The person who said that Norpoth had 'no endurance' needs to look up the meaning of the word in the dictionary. You do not run 13:20 for 5000 (around 40 years ago!) without endurance.
Ghost in Saudi,
, apply today
vladimir
i tried that session you suggested running one minute walking the next only did it for two hours though but hope to build it up over time.
It was interesting strange stopping every minute managed 9.75 miles which was ok though would have liked it to be more but interesting the run parts were quicker than normal even right up to the end
The pace varied through the run as had to head off road in parts puddles of rainwater lying on the paths had literally frozen over even off road you could see patches of iced over water. Hope it warms up soon
Bob Wildes wrote:
I've never seen a race time for him in a distance longer
than the 5000.
There is a thread somewhere in which van Aaken stated that Norpoth did not like to run as long a distance as van Aaken would have preferred. That same thread claims that Norpoth never ran longer than 24 kilometers.
He also did not run very faster for longer distances. Another thread mentioned about him running a 10k "fast" in training, in 35 minutes.
He competed in the 1500 in Mexico City and the 5000 in Tokyo and Munich. At one time he held the 2000 meter world record. Why would he want to race above a 5000 with so much success in lesser distances?
To get better, to improve, to run faster. This is exactly my point, he was lazy and had a bad attitude towards training and racing. I don't mean to be too hard on him, but Prefontaine was definitely a much better runner, because he went for it in most of his races, except the '72 k, where held back and ran like Norpoth. Look what it got him, 4th place. But he still beat Norpoth by two places.
history in the making wrote: I don't mean to be too hard on him, but Prefontaine was definitely a much better runner, because he went for it in most of his races, except the '72 k, where held back and ran like Norpoth. Look what it got him, 4th place. But he still beat Norpoth by two places.
Pre "went for it" because that was the style that was most likely to get him to the finish line first. In other words...a strategy. Norpoth's best strategy was to hang and kick.
The thought that Pre was a much better runner than Norpoth is laughable.
It is a great form workout and it should not leave you as tired as another run of equal time. I think when or if you are able to do a longer run you will see how quickly you recover. Last month I did a longist run/walk of five hours and felt fine the following day. I did a four hour straight run on Thursday and I can still feel the effects. Weather here is just as bad with cold and wind, but little if any snow. I was discussing this web conversation and a friend of mine who was a very decent runner back "in the day" said that he did a like workout, but did 400 run and 200 walk- usually for around three hours and he felt the recovery was great and the stress was lower than just a straight run. We both agree that the main benefits are: 1) getting used to keep your form while being on your feet for the marathon time; 2) mentally pushing pace while tired; 3) recovery from a long run.
...Holy Smokes, don't if I "can handle the truth!", lol!!!
Thanks it is interesting though it was initially convincing friends who run of the walking breaks but they are supportive of me
Feel quite good actually even though i did a similar length run on the saturday consisting of 350m run 50 m walks with ½mile pick up near the end with some 50m strides
Ess Gee Ess wrote:
The thought that Pre was a much better runner than Norpoth is laughable.
Except that Pre accomplished much more with much less talent than did Norpoth.
I am not a Pre "fan", but have admiration for the way that he ran and "went for it", rather than hanging around at slow paces like so many do.
history in the making wrote:
Except that Pre accomplished much more with much less talent than did Norpoth.
Based on what? My understanding is that the actual fact is that Pre had one of the highest VO2Max recorded. Is high VO2Max result of training or genetic? If you are basing this statement on the fact that Pre accomplished very little, say, when he was in high school (though he didn't do too shabby in Coos Bay either) than Norpoth (I have no idea what kind of a runner he was when he was 15 or 17), can you jump to conclusion that Pre had less natural talent or that Pre was lazy in high school? How would you, or could you, say that Pre had less talent? How do you define "talent"?
Perhaps some of Van Aaken's methods are outdated. A lot of runners have run faster than his athletes while using quite different methods.
Van Aaken was really against lactic acid before much was known about lactic acid. Now it is understood that quality training can improve a runner's ability to clear lactic acid from exercising muscle fibers, and use it as an energy source in other places.
Also, high quality training provides an opportunity to condition fast twitch muscle fibers aerobically so they produce less lactic acid.
history in the making wrote:
Except that Pre accomplished much more with much less talent than did Norpoth.
Based on Pre training much harder, and running his max in races. He accomplished as much as he was able to do, based on the training and competition at the time. As has been pointed out by others on this thread, Norpoth was a lazy trainer, and a lazy racer. By talent I am referring to physical talent. Pre, of course, had much more mental talent than did Norport.
My understanding is that the actual fact is that Pre had one of the highest VO2Max recorded.
84, but not relevant to preformance. Aouita's was 96. vo2 max is a measure of work output, not performance. Pre had a high work output, but not unusual among world class runners.
Well if 8:41 for the 2mi in high school is "less talent" then I would have loved to be as "talentless" as Pre...96 VO2 max for Said Aouita? Not likely since from my understanding he was measured at around 85 or 86. If this is being touted then either he was woefully inefficient or the test was was not done correctly. Greater than 90 VO2 max is seen with Cross Country skiers. I would love to see JTupper chime in on this...
history in the making wrote:
[quote]history in the making wrote:
Except that Pre accomplished much more with much less talent than did Norpoth.
Based on Pre training much harder, and running his max in races. He accomplished as much as he was able to do, based on the training and competition at the time. As has been pointed out by others on this thread, Norpoth was a lazy trainer, and a lazy racer. By talent I am referring to physical talent. Pre, of course, had much more mental talent than did Norport.
NobbyH wrote:
history in the making wrote:Except that Pre accomplished much more with much less talent than did Norpoth.
Based on what? My understanding is that the actual fact is that Pre had one of the highest VO2Max recorded. Is high VO2Max result of training or genetic? If you are basing this statement on the fact that Pre accomplished very little, say, when he was in high school (though he didn't do too shabby in Coos Bay either) than Norpoth (I have no idea what kind of a runner he was when he was 15 or 17), can you jump to conclusion that Pre had less natural talent or that Pre was lazy in high school? How would you, or could you, say that Pre had less talent? How do you define "talent"?
Take 2 runners.
One does less training than the other. Norporth did train less and easier than Prefontaine.
The one who does less and easy train is faster at short distances by instance from 100m to the 400m. Besides the same runner that trains less but he is faster used to outquick the slower runner that trains more and harder despite both do similar pbs.
Norporth was faster in short distances and wins over Prefontaine despite they did similar Pbs.
That´s why Prefontaine did less talent than Norporth.
About V02max. Your understanding is that Pre had one of the highest VO2Max recorded. BU what´s Norporth VO2max ?
Don´t you notice that on lots of athletes the VO2max isn´t good estimate of performance ? Don´t you notice that different V0max test machines and different protocols did different VO2max ?
In most of the items Prefontaine losts. He was a full-time runner while Norporth was a full-time worker.
Steve Prefontaine only wins about 2 main facts. He did one short career relate to Nothing as Norporth 10 years on the top.
Prefontaine did one good 10000m either what people tends to miss and Norporth never did because he never did 10k on track.
history in the making wrote:
Ess Gee Ess wrote:The thought that Pre was a much better runner than Norpoth is laughable.
Except that Pre accomplished much more with much less talent than did Norpoth.
I am not a Pre "fan", but have admiration for the way that he ran and "went for it", rather than hanging around at slow paces like so many do.
We had an interesting thread going, but sure as hell some teenage Pre wanker had to capture it.