Gerry Lindgren's 16:08 four miler

Tony Soprano wrote:

http://www.runnervision.com/mtsys/mt-search.cgi?search=Lindgren&IncludeBlogs=1&IncludeBlogs=3&IncludeBlogs=5

That's an interview I did with Gerry a few years ago. Some fun stuff in there.

I did "Letsrun research" on this topic and found the thread where Jack Daniels verified Lindgren's 350-mile week.

Isn't that just as unbelievable as a 16:08 4-mile race?

Did anyone actually read this interview?

All he talks about is what's wrong with society and how HE was such a huge inspiration to other great runners. He builds himself up so much yet he can't accept the flaws within himself.

And Tony, why didn't you ask him about his family? I would like to hear an answer from Gerry about what happened and if you think he doesn't have to answer anyone your right, but when your in the spotlight everything shows up, good and bad.

NOT ONE person who has mocked the great Gerry Lindgren on this thread has done anything close to what he has done in the track and cross country. most of you dilweeds probably never even broke 420 for a mile or 930 for a 2 mile. Losers like you need to keep quiet.

Runher down wrote:

Really great thread. I would like Gerry to get on here and speak

his mind. See how he feels about these humorous claims.

I don't understand why so many people -- some who are attacking Gerry, others who are defending him -- are getting so worked up about all of this. Obviously, Gerry has told some real whoppers. What's unclear to me (and, from what I've read elsewhere, what's unclear to others as well) is whether Gerry actually believes everything he says, or whether he's just indulging his own quirky sense of humor, making jokes that no one else quite gets. I don't think that either explanation qualifies as "normal" in a psychological sense; Gerry undoubtedly satisfies sufficient criteria for one or more conditions in DSM-IV. But so what? Gerry is a kick -- funny, inspirational, and wise about this sport in a way that can come only from personally going out and testing one's own limits day after day.

I wholeheartedly agree.

On a side note, I once ran the Jet to Jetty 10k in Los Angeles on a CERTIFIED course, and, yet, I went through the opening mile in 4:07. The rest of the course was accurate for every mile. So, perhaps we shouldn't fault Gerry here at all.

This all comes down to a simple question: Would multiple years of running upwards of 200 miles a week produce the aerobic fitness to run times approaching those claimed?

As we have seen with examples like Dathan R. long periods of massive aerobic work do produce substantial improvement. Not everybody can withstand such grueling training but perhaps Lindgren was special in this respect. Obviously he did not have the talent in terms of genetic ability that other contemporaries did, though it is clear his body could withstand much more difficult training. It is then logical that with such a high volume he could develop the aerobic capacity to run unprecedented times. However, whether or not he actually did seems to be a matter of conjecture.

Runher down wrote:

Gerry is a kick -- funny, inspirational, and wise about this sport in a way that can come only from personally going out and testing one's own limits day after day.

you hit on it right there. I think Gerry, by exagerating some of his times (and he certainly doesn't need to), is trying to go over the top in trying to inspire others that 'anything is possible', IF YOU BELIEVE!! I think it is THAT more than trying to brag.

Dorsiflunktion wrote:

This all comes down to a simple question: Would multiple years of running upwards of 200 miles a week produce the aerobic fitness to run times approaching those claimed?

As we have seen with examples like Dathan R. long periods of massive aerobic work do produce substantial improvement. Not everybody can withstand such grueling training but perhaps Lindgren was special in this respect. Obviously he did not have the talent in terms of genetic ability that other contemporaries did, though it is clear his body could withstand much more difficult training. It is then logical that with such a high volume he could develop the aerobic capacity to run unprecedented times. However, whether or not he actually did seems to be a matter of conjecture.

No, no, he didn't run unprecedented times like sub 2 hour marathons or 16:08 for 4 miles. No need for conjecture.

Gerry Lindgren did not run average 50 miles a day for 7 straight days. At 7 minute pace that would be over 5 and 1/2 hours of running everyday (of course, I'm sorry, he was running 6 minute pace,so then it would be 5 hours of running everyday). Jack Daniels verified this, sure he did and he probably ran every step of the way with him, right? No, he just took Gerry's word for it. Oh that's right, he broke it up and ran 25 and 25, what was I thinking? He ran "just short" of 2 marathons every day at the pace of 2, count'em 2, 2:37 marathons on the same day, 7 days in a row!!!!!

Gerry did not run 16:08 for an actual 4 mile distance over any course, including the track! His best time of 3 miles ever on a track was averaging 4:17 plus per mile. Now on a cross country course he suddenly goes out fast and keeps going running 15 seconds per mile faster AND a mile longer than his 3 mile pr on a track and some people actually believe it was four miles? Of course, he never did anything remotely close to that before or after, so it must just be a coincidence, ya think?

The level of running intelligence on this board is lower than low. You people must be buying your clues from the dollar store. He's not exaggerating, he's just not telling the truth.....hmmmmm, what do we call that?

Believing won't get you anywhere if you don't actually have the ability. I ran over 100 miles a week for several weeks during many years of running, damn, I should have been believing I could run 2:08 all along. What was I thinking?

Dorsiflunktion wrote:

Obviously he did not have the talent in terms of genetic ability that other contemporaries did, though it is clear his body could withstand much more difficult training. It is then logical that with such a high volume he could develop the aerobic capacity to run unprecedented times. However, whether or not he actually did seems to be a matter of conjecture.

You have very little in the way of reasoning skills.

You have stated that he did not have the talent of his contemporaries but have concluded that maybe he ran FAR FASTER than they ever did.

You have said it is "logical that ... he could ... run unprecedented times" when you provide no logical support whatsoever. Does he have a single _witnessed_ time to suggest that this is even remotely possible? Did he run 4:02 pace for a 5k? a 3-mile? OR EVEN A 2-MILE RACE?

NO! NO, No, no! 8:04 for 2 miles. It never happened. So how, in the name of everything remotely logical, could you deduce that a 16:08 is "a matter of conjecture"?

Gerry is full of shit. Mt. SAC's 4 mile course is indeed four miles and 3 miles of it is totally brutal. I say he broke 20, thats about it (and thats still a monstrous time)

Smells like Obama to me!

Cripes, as much as the guy exaggerated his non sanctioned races do you suppose there is any chance that his mileage per week was greatly embellished? Yes, he was a beast and had tons of talent.

But I think there is as much bull to his purported mileage and workouts as there is to his supposed times in workouts and those runners much greater than him who he claims to have inspired.

Another fun thread so I will add my five cents. Gerry Lindgren was a great runner who like Jim Ryun ran some world class times while in High School. The only times that are valid in my mind are those run on a certified track. What is most important in Cross Country is ones placing. Courses vary and some even change from day to day. They, and road courses, were noticably inaccurate in the 1960s and before. In 1957 even the Boston Marathon was found to be 1,183 yards short from 1951 to 1956.

This summer Gerry Lindgren said that he did not have a record of the times he had run in his various races. After he received them He said that he "had remembered everything wrong". He now has a list of his top times from 1964 to 1971 and a list of his top five times in each track event from 2 miles to 10,000 meters.

So lets look at Gerry Lindgen's real record. He coheld the world record for 6 miles. He held 4 other American records, broke 5 collegiate records, broke World Junior and US high school records 9 times each.

Gerry held one AAU National Championship, 2 USTFF Championships and 11 NCAA Championships. The only NCAA Championship he lost was the 1968 2 mile indoor race he lost to Jim Ryan.

Speaking of Jim Ryun, the two of them ran their first world class result at Compton on June 5, 1964. What follows are some interesting facts about their races.

Gerry Lindgren********************Jim Ryun

18 (3/9/46)--HS Senior**********17 (4/29/47) HS Junior

5,000m-13:44********************mile-3:59.0

4th in an international field***8th in a US field

6.0 seconds from the winner*****1.6 seconds from the winner

9.0 seconds off world record****4.6 seconds off wrd record

13th best in history************tied 31st best in history

3rd best in US******************tied 12th best in US hist.

bettered high school record by *better high school record

80.6 seconds********************by 4.5 seconds

did not break world Jr. record**broke wrld Jr.R by 4.5 sec

last lap 60.5*******************last lap was 56.2

in both cases it was the 4th open race of the runners career

That is some of what I remember about Jim Ryun and Gerry Lindgren!

wish436 wrote:

Gerry is full of shit. Mt. SAC's 4 mile course is indeed four miles and 3 miles of it is totally brutal. I say he broke 20, thats about it (and thats still a monstrous time)

Some truth here. The 4 mile Mt. SAC course in question was probably the old Jr College course, which was basically the old high school 2 mile course forwards, then backwards. If it was short, it wasn't by much. But it was hilly. Insanely hilly. When I was running HS XC in the early 70s, I ran the 2 mile course in 10:20 a week after I'd run 9:29 on a flat, accurately measured, mostly grass 2 mile course. Granted, the offset for someone like GL would have been much smaller, but to run 16:08 on those hills would have been like running 15:20 or 30 on a flat course. 15:20 = 3:50/mile pace. So, I'm going to go out on limb here and say he probably didn't do the equivalent of 4 back-to-back world record mile runs, with a zero recovery interval in between. To run 18:08 would have been world-class.

amazing on how dumb........... wrote:

The level of running intelligence on this board is lower than low. You people must be buying your clues from the dollar store. He's not exaggerating, he's just not telling the truth.....hmmmmm, what do we call that?

I think there's ONE post that actually entertains the validity of of his 16:08 4 mile, so maybe you're the one who needs to chill and work on the intelligence factor.

If you were trying to refer to the 350mile/wk issue as well, I don't see how people believing its truth shows a lack of intelligence. Sure it's a crazy number and a seemingly-absurd claim, but certainly not impossible if someone really wanted to do it. And of all the eccentrics with the stamina and high mileage credentials, Gerry would have been the one to do it. It's fairly well documented that he ran 200mi weeks (others have too); why not go crazy and run 300???

There's nothing else to do in Pullman but run; 3 workouts a day is what he supposedly did. It's the lifestyle of your up-and-coming Kenyan star (run, eat, run, eat, sleep, run, sleep), just at a heightened level. Do you think that Daniels, Raymond Krise and Bill Squires, and Marc Bloom would have talked about his crazy milage in their books without a little research (ie. checking with folks at WSU)?

Later amigo.

Dorsiflunktion wrote:

This all comes down to a simple question: Would multiple years of running upwards of 200 miles a week produce the aerobic fitness to run times approaching those claimed?

As we have seen with examples like Dathan R. long periods of massive aerobic work do produce substantial improvement. Not everybody can withstand such grueling training but perhaps Lindgren was special in this respect. Obviously he did not have the talent in terms of genetic ability that other contemporaries did, though it is clear his body could withstand much more difficult training. It is then logical that with such a high volume he could develop the aerobic capacity to run unprecedented times. However, whether or not he actually did seems to be a matter of conjecture.

So, you´re saying that the fact (if it´s true) that he ran that kind of mileage is some sort of proof, or at least an indication, that he actually ran those absurd times? Jeez!

That was the most stupid thing I´ve read in a long time!

The simple answer to your simple question is: no it´s not logical that running 200 mpw should enable a runner to run times in 4 mile XC races faster than any human being has run in a 5000m track race.

Gerry is a cool guy. If any of you want to come run with him here in Honolulu come down. I ran with him for about 5 years everyday at 5:30pm. He is one of the best motivational coaches I have ever met. He has great stories. At 62 he's still running 17 min 5ks.

You need to get to know Gerry to get his sense of humor. I have literally been rolling on the floor laughing at the stories he would tell reporters. He loves to mess with reporters. Its hilarious.

This one reporter would come and ask him questions about his past wives and he would tell him about the three kids he had with one wife and the four with another. It was some of the best stand up comedy I have witnessed.

Gerry is the original front runner. His whole philosophy is to not win the race but create the best race possible. He'll run the first lap in 60 just to make everyone work hard so they can get their best time. His greatest day ever would be his actions causing someone else to get the world record.

Thankyou, well said.

Great post above.

Can't match that personal account, but in a book I've got at home is a photo of Lindgren, an 18 year old kid sticking it to a couple of USSR Olympians (Ivanov and Dutov) in an international 10,000m he won

Forget that xc time, check these out, they are still struggling to match his times now:

High school personal records

1500 meters - 3:44.6 (1964)

1-mile (1.6 km) - 4:01.5 (1964) (2nd fastest in history in 1964; #8 all time among American high schoolers as of 2008)

3000 meters - 8:06.3i (1964) High School Record (3rd best of all time as of 2008)

2-mile (3.2 km) - 8:40.0i (1964) High School Record (as of 2008 is still the 3rd All-time American High School time: and 1st all-time indoors)

3 miles (4.8 km) - 13:17.0 (1964)

5000 meters - 13:44.0 (1964) High School Record (2nd All-time American High School time as of 2008)

10000 meters - 29:17.6 (1964) High School Record (5th best all time as of 2008)

[edit] College personal records

3 miles (4.8 km) - 12:53.0 (1966) Collegiate Record

6 miles (9.7 km) - 27:11.6 (1965) Collegiate and World Record

3000 meters - 7:58 (1965) Collegiate Record

5000 meters - 13:33.8 (1968) Collegiate Record

10000 meters - 28:40.2 (1967) Collegiate Record

[edit] NCAA Championships

Cross Country - 1966 (29:01.4), 1967 (30:45.6), 1969 (28:59.2)

3 miles (4.8 km) outdoor track - 1966 (13:33.7), 1967 (13:47.8)

5000 m - 1968 (13:47.2)

6-mile (9.7 km) outdoor track - 1966 (28:07.0), 1967 (28:44.0)

10000 m - 1968 (29:41.0)

2 miles (3.2 km) indoor track - 1966 (8:41.3), 1967 (8:34.7)

Didn't he beat Pre once as well?