FM and Saratoga Training

Please sir, do not criticize something that you can't understand. This is not a condemnation when I say that either, simply I am stating that if you have not lived by excellence based processes, then you don't have the incite to argue against it. My coaches have never demanded anything unreasonable from me, I do what I do because of a love for team and sport. I hardly feel broken, everyday I feel stronger than the last and hopeful for an equally strong future, I only hope that my future experiences will compare. We hate being referred to as crazy or other such things because there are so many people who can benefit from the team setting we have been placed in and yet we only get 20 runners a year. Excellence and success are certainly far from "the same old story" and very few people realize that. A program is only as great as the athletes make it and the least we deserve is some respect for what we have done.

M. McGurrin

Clbr Lng wrote:

B. Farrell wrote:

Laurel Burdick wrote:

Good FM runners coming out of the woodwork to defend the program, on a board known for its vicious treatment of good runners... I'm impressed. Says something about the program that otherwise anonymous runners would break that anonymity to defend the program. If nothing else, these individuals feel they have come out better for being in the program, and it's their opinion that matters at the end of the day.

I think mostly all of these things have been mentioned in some form but...

1. The training---these are intelligent coaches who know how to train their kids. They do not force them...the kids who succeed are willing to work hard. I haven't seen anything that glaringly shows they are pushing too hard. There is no conclusive evidence that doing x amount of speed-work sessions leads to burn out. I think it only becomes evident that the work-load is too much when kids are injured an above average amount. This isn't the case with either program. Compared to the other aspects of success (motivation, team-bonding, positive attitudes, the mental health) training is almost the least important factor.

2. College success or lack there of:

a. Out of the vast number of runners in the NCAA, there are only a tiny amount that actually make it to nationals. Pointing out that someone "only" finished 68th is in no way a failure. The talent needed to be amazing in college is way more important than to be amazing in HS. For a non-#1 Saratoga or FM alum to make NCAAs is a tremendous feat (these are the kids that most likely were above average in HS b/c they trained intelligently and were coached intelligently, not because they could run sub420 or sub5 just off of talent)

3. The team atmosphere of HS: People have pointed out that these athletes miss the team atmosphere and that's why they can't do well in college. Coming from a strong HS program (many state championships in XC and in track) I know exactly what they mean. I'm running in college and despite having a close team, I know the support and team goals will never mean as much as my HS team. I hope to succeed regardless of that change, but does that mean I would rather have had a lesser HS experience? NO! The lessons i learned and experiences i had in HS in no way "damaged" me. Unless you have been on a team like this, you can't understand. Through-out HS, even my schools AD thought the XC and track teams were "cultish" because it was such a tight-knit group. We didn't worship our coach (and i assume the FM and toga people do not worship their coaches), they have just experienced the tremendously positive impact their coaches have on their lives/my coach had on my life. The goal should be for college teams and college coaches to foster this same kind of environment, not for these environments to be discouraged in High School.

I think an example of this would be the Washington women last year...their interviews always emphasized how much fun and love they had with and for eachother. In college, i think this point is underrated. For successful HS teams, I think it is easier for coaches to cultivate this environment because the kids don't have any ties to other programs (in college, its hard to let go of the HS team loyalty), they're all from the same hometown, and the egos are put aside (in college, everyone was their teams top runner and usually has more reason to want to beat everyone else)

sorry that was lengthy, but hopefully it helps put to rest the notion that these great high school teams are detrimental to the athletes.

also, ignore the grammatical errors...I tend to make a lot when I ramble like this

I am an FM grad, and formerly ran for Bill and John Aris in the Cross Country and Indoor Track seasons. I was a captain of the first NXN championship team in 2006, and I was a lacrosse player in the spring, and a soccer convert who never ran XC before 10th grade. I am currently in my junior year playing Division I lacrosse at Georgetown University.

I will forever cherish the experience I had with the Aris's and my running teammates in my time at FM. It would be impossible to express my gratitude, because what I gained from the experience is truly immeasurable. I would just like to say that the Aris's are wonderful human beings and amazing coaches, who care most deeply for their runners as human beings.

Today, running is still a love in my life, and I am thankful every day for the physical, mental, and spiritual life lessons the Aris XC program has given me. The coaches and the girls deserve nothing but love and respect for their hardwork and dedication. What they have built together is unique and special, and ought to be admired!

Good luck to both teams this weekend. I love and miss you guys and I'll be thinking of you!

^^^^^^^whoops.

Ha ha. Oh the horrors of a coach getting involved in the personal lives of their athletes. I still am good friends with my old coach and if I listened better, would've been a much better runner.....heck they even got me summer jobs. Your last 2 sentences contradict, I believe, everything a good coach would need to do to be an effective coach.

Okay, of course the runners on the FM squads are going to have a direct bias towards their training as the "right" training, but what about the 80%+ athletes that go to college to run?

Jared Burdick- now at RIT doing what? 25:xx 8ks? OOoOOoOo impressiveeeeeee. He went downhill.

Geoff King- outkicked Murdock at indoor states to win in 4:1mid. then what? at NC State with Martinez, I see John Martinez doing well.... what about King?

Gruenewald struggled his first year at Stanford because of his ego, he couldnt handle not being the top dog on the team, so what does that show about the FM teams beliefs? Shows that he cared more about his individual status than his team status. It took him until his jr. year in college to get just a little better than his senior year physical status.

McCann- hes at UMass... 14:4x 5k in his jr year.... All of the top 5 squad from the mid 2000s that they had could have achieved this with just one more year of high school, funny how they burnt out in hs....

BIGGEST EXAMPLE is OWEN KIMPLE. what has he done? 4:07 1600 in high school, and like 1:5low 800, blah blah, beast in hs, but now at Cornell he isnt anywhere near his hs accomplishments.

My point is that this amazing squad they had in 2004-7, all had their glory days being on top in high school, while in college they were just average joes of the DI and DIII programs they attended.

To all of who have expressed concern regarding the FM program:

My name is Jessica Hauser. I currently run Cross Country and Track for Brigham Young University with a dear friend and high-school teammate Thomas Gruenewald. I ran on the 2006 Nike Team National girls team for Fayetteville Manlius. I was not the top runner, most of the time I found myself running third for the team with Mackenzie Carter and Kathryn Buchan leading the way. Regardless, I do consider myself a "normal" high-school athlete who was lucky enough to have the opportunity to compete at the Division 1 level. I have three insights I would like to offer you in response to the many posts on this thread and they are as follows.

1. The FM program is one of deep integrity, hard work, and a pursuit of excellence.

I could give you endless examples, as Hannah Luber expressed, of experiences I have shared with Bill Aris, John Aris, and a select squad of girls that would perhaps describe better than my sentiments the actuality, the reality, of this program and what it stands for. For the sake of how personal those are to me and the ones I shared them with, I will leave you this: Bill and John Aris are wonderful people. As a very religious person myself, I find in them qualities that I not only desire, but that are life fulfilling and full of love. Every practice, every team meeting, every encounter I recall with these two men, distilled in me a greater desire to improve myself. Whether that be in running, spirituality, life goals, character, education, friendships, family, etc. There remains one common aspect. It was NEVER about them. It was never about winning, it was about us. The people we were becoming, the traits we were developing, the talents we were pursuing, the potential we were reaching, the preparation for the future, and ultimately the achievement of excellence. Excellence has no limit. Excellence has nothing to do with winning. Excellence has to do with heart, determination, and love. Not only did they teach me to apply this concept to my running, but more importantly I carried that into my life, to the things that really matter. I dare-say I will never meet two men who care so much about the people in their lives, more specifically, the young girls and boys who they spend countless hours, energy, and make sacrifices for, never for the benefit of themselves. They are not perfect, everyone has flaws, weaknesses, limitations - but they lead and live their lives in such a way to suggest that despite inadequacies, their intents, desires, and hope for others remains selfless and supreme in all they do. To judge a program, or better yet, a person without knowing them personally, seems to be a very subjective and demeaning approach. I will stand by this program forever. But even more so, I will stand by these two men forever. What they strive for is not to be noticed and acclaimed by the running world, but to change the life of student athletes who can further change the world by what they have learned and take those same principles and apply them to what they stand for in life.

2. The transition from high-school athletics to collegiate level competition is a lot harder than most assume.

Despite injuries, sickness, altitude adjustments, coaching differences, weight training implementation, different racing strategies, and the plethora of notable reasons that could be attributed to decreased performance in college, there has to be something said about the personal changes that occur for all young adults at this age. For many there is a struggle to be on your own. For others, balancing new relationships. Yet for others it seems to be balancing new life goals with education. All the while still competing and meeting the expectations of athletic administration, coaches and oneself, which is an added demand that regular students at a university do not experience. There is obviously going to be major differences in the way athletes handle these SIGNIFICANT life decisions and changes. It is not easy. It may take a few years for some to get a hold on it. It make take changing programs (eg. Tommy Gruenewald) for one that further holds your life values and interests rather than just the running part. Yes, many will say, those FM runners haven't done significant things with regards to running in college. However true and evidenced that may be (although I believe there is evidence other wise), running was never about winning or being the top for those slew of kids that went through the FM program. It was about achieving excellence. To the outsider the time that wasn't reached, the PR that never came, the number one finish that never happened at NCAA's, the big time name in collegiate running that did not surface, may be all failures. But if they took the time to look closer they would see the several successes that come through these so called "failures." What they don't see is the improvement over time, the helping of teammates in a workout by running just that much harder, the persistence despite not having the ideal results, the love of the sport, the countless hours spent balancing life, the coming back from injury just to run one mile without pain, the mental preparation put into every workout and race, the faith that although they might not be top runners, they have the ability to help others in their running goals by being a "top runner" in mentality and character. Not giving up. Who cares about the times, of-course they are wonderful and the goal of every collegiate athlete. But even if the accolades never come, does that make the athlete a poor competitor, person, or teammate? Does that mean they failed in collegiate athletics? No. It is more than that and I would hope that with so many talented, wonderful athletes at the collegiate level it would only make sense that the number one runners, don't always stay the number one runners. Everyone at this level is accomplished and knows how to work hard, or they wouldn't make it there. What is to be applauded are the small successes, the small steps toward excellence in every area of life.

3. Training hard at a young age, especially with young girls, can be dangerous - but with well educated, and selfless coaching it can be done in a way that is neither detrimental nor forceful.

Both Bill and John Aris have devoted much of their lives to the sport of running. They don't have doctorate degrees in exercise science nor did they have significant experience competing at the world level themselves, yet they do their research, learn from what they did experience, and they spend countless hours perfecting every aspect of their training. Trial and Error. Thomas Edison, when making the light bulb failed thousands of times. Good coaching doesn't come overnight. These men have devoted their lives to becoming better coaches and have always been willing to change their philosophy's as it sees fit to the best interest of their athletes. Many say if they are such good coaches why are they at the high-school level. I would say back, doesn't anyone have a passion in life? Doesn't anyone realize the value of true devotion to something anymore? Do you have to be an award winning college coach to be successful? No! They have a love of running, of cross country, of these young adults. They treat their job with great respect, because they have such a wonderful opportunity to affect the lives of young adolescents while they are still developing their identity and what they have to offer the world. My utmost respect to anyone who takes this task seriously and realizes the impact of a high school coach, teacher, mentor,church leader, etc. at this stage of life. There is something to be said of a man who isn't fazed by the world's view of success and prominence. Who finds fulfillment on coaching an awkward random group of kids who have the potential to make a difference in this life, whether through their running or other means. To take upon such responsibility to help in this process is greater to me than being the coach of a number one team in the NCAA. Both have great accomplishment and deserve the same amount of respect.

I leave you with this quote, a favorite and one that may enlighten your minds to the point of the arguments I have presented.

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt.

Please understand that it is not about what you accomplish, but how you accomplish it.

To the FM teams competing this weekend, all my love and support! And to every team competing, best of luck.

Maybe Cornell needs a better coach?Go down the top 10-20 finishers at any state meet. How many of them are running (much less running faster) 4 years later? 1/3? 1/5?

mmmmmm ok? wrote:

BIGGEST EXAMPLE is OWEN KIMPLE. what has he done? 4:07 1600 in high school, and like 1:5low 800, blah blah, beast in hs, but now at Cornell he isnt anywhere near his hs accomplishments.

people need to leave these kids alone. Okay, so if they do go to college and don't run well...so what? maybe they found another passion, or moved on with their life? it has nothing to do with the actual integrity of the program.

not everyone who runs a 4:50 mile has to turn pro. You can have another life...

jr. hs .. wrote:

The training is a bit extreme and many break down but those that do handle it perform at a high level. As a coach myself, i have made a choice to keep the kids in it for the long term, just not willing to be as controlling and extreme as these folks. Does get hard though, it is tough losing to these big ego types, living through their kids. The FM duo is nuts.

This seems contrary to what several of the kids involved in the program have eloquently stated, but I am more concerned with the actual results of your "keep the kids in it for the long term" philosophy.

I came from a low key HS program. I had moderate success in HS and improved in college. More importantly, I never lost the love of running that my coaches helped me to develop. I still compete in my mid 40s.

Can you point to any coaches or HS programs that consistently lead a greater percentage of their athletes to consistently improve at the collegiate level and beyond than 'Toga or F-M do? If there are programs designed to "keep the kids in it for the long term", should we not see evidence of that.

Based on my 30 years in the sport, I can not. From what I have seen, life gets in the way of MOST runners, regardless of what type of HS program they came from.

With that in mind, I can not fault any athlete from making the effort to maximize their abilities while in HS. Based on the many posts above, these children have maintained a love for the sport, their teamates, and their coaches that has not faded - even though they may not have lived up to the expectations of some anonymous Letsrun posters.

there are two kinds of successful athletes in HS. those who have success because they are being trained very well, like collegians, or those who race well because they are very talented. A lot of top programs are getting mediocre talent, but doing a lot with them because correct training is applied to their ability. These kids stand out in HS because they are competing against people who are not being trained properly. But in college when everyone starts to be trained properly, those kids with talent catch up to those who have been trained properly for years. So it appears that the kids who were awesome in HS are burnt out, but they aren't, they were just caught by the naturally better runners.

I am huge FM fan, good luck this year at NXN!

I grew up running in section 3 when the Mr. Aris initially took over the program I believe. No matter if there was an FM girl in my race or not- Mr. Aris would always congratulate me after my races. Did he have to congratulate a girl from a school that has absolutely nothing to do with his team, his conference, his class, ... essentially a runner that has no bearing on what his team is doing? NO. But that has always stood out in my memories of high school track- Mr. Aris telling me "good job" after my races. As a non-product of FM and only through this interaction with Mr. Aris I can confidently say that I support him and his team 100%.

I can also speak to the power of having a great high school coach and attempting to make the transfer over into college running. I trusted my high school coach completely and it undoubtedly was a part of my lackluster first few years of collegiate running. HOWEVER- what my high school coach taught me has been invaluable. I eventually started reaching my potential later in college but the attitude,confidence, and knowledge that he instilled in me during high school played a large role in that. Several of our team's former runners are still good friends, we still all meet up during holidays, 99% of us still run and those who do not never were on board in the first place.

as simply an observer of the FM program I can say that I support them 100% and wish them the best of luck in portland.

I usually don't respond to anything written on these forums- as a Stotan, I was taught the importance of ignoring the naysayers and negative people who try and detract from what you have accomplished and what you believe. This was one of the many important lessons instilled in me by Coaches John and Bill. However, when people speak maliciously, and falsely, about two people who have done so much to shape my life, I feel the need to reply and correct such fallacies.

First off, the training program at FM has always been strength/aerobically based. It was contradictory to Coach's ideals to "run us into the ground" through intervals and speed work as some programs may do. We were built up consistently over 4 years, gaining strength and fitness over that period of time. Coach's training of each of us was extremely careful and always had the long term as the primary concern. I'm sure there are some top high school programs who are able to put a large group of 15 or 20 talented guys through heavy anaerobic training, but we simply didn't have this luxury. If you might recall, during the year of our greatest success- 2004, we were essentially 5 men deep up front. The fact that we were able to accomplish so much with these numbers speaks volumes to the Aris' ability to motivate, inspire and very carefully extract the best from their athletes.

In terms of their concern for our post-high school success, I am sure every FM alum will tell you just how willing Bill and John are to continue to help and advise you once you have moved on. I was fortunate enough to run huge pr's in my sophomore year here at UMass of 14:21 and 30:04, a definite step up from where I was as a HS senior, and John Aris was the first person on the phone congratulating me, with Bill following soon thereafter. Their care and concern for our long term success is unparalleled. As far as our collegiate success as a group goes, in no way has this been negatively effected by our training while at FM. Quite the opposite, really. I have dealt with several injuries while in college, many due to my own idiocy, but my ability to return each time can without a doubt be drawn back to the tremendous aerobic base I achieved under the tutelage of Bill and John.

Excellence is often met with heavy criticism, simply because people can't understand how it is done, unless there is something negative that can be attached to it. Just like the easy explanation for any great elite runner's performance is that "he/she must be doping", the easy explanation for any great high school cross country team is "that coach must be running those kids into the ground" and "they'll be burnt out within two years". It is my hope that people realize this is simply not the case at FM. I count me and my teammates as incredibly lucky for being able to thrive under such great coaches. I am heavily indebted to these two men, and as you can see from some of the posts preceding me, as well as those I'm sure will follow, I am certainly not the only one.

Best of luck to both teams this weekend, run like Stotans, and I look forward to seeing you all in two weeks!

Andrew McCann

Dear jr hs and all others who posted negative comments

My name is Paul Merriman and being a senior and running 4 years under the Aris' I believe I can help you in seeing the truth in our program. For years I have constantly heard, but rarely read sentiments expressed by internet personalities such as yourself. It has been our programs belief to not respond to these comments and usually to never even read them due to the harmful things said about our team. There comes a time though, when our coaches are being wrongly accused, that as athletes we must set the record straight. I am not writing this to argue or to start some kind of forum debate over this topic. I am simply writing this to provide the truth about our program to anyone who believes our coaches are anything but inspirational, knowledgeable, dedicated coaches. Coaches who live to produce not only incredible athletes and loving teams, but good and decent human beings.

This section is not directed directly at whoever you are (although I am saddened if you are a coach, to be openly attacking another program and not leaving your name) but I think it will help you as well as anyone else who cares to understand some of the many myths about us. Our coaches do not overtrain us with mileage or excessive speed work. On the contrary we are a strength based team, deeply rooted in a strong aerobic base, with quality being of the strength nature embedded in it to augment our supreme fitness. Obviously as championship meets role around some speed work is required but only as needed. Our training does not run us into the ground, if you believe it does, you simply do because you need a reason other than a positive one to explain the success of our program. Success and consistency often breed contempt and jealousy.

Also in no way shape or form do the coaches of FM control their runners. Our coaches believe in simple clean living. Eating healthy (meaning healthy foods, this does not mean limiting the amount of food by any stretch of the imagination) training hard, getting lots of rest, doing well in school. Essentially they teach us how to live as a true runner does. You can twist this any way you like, but they do not force this upon us. All we do is see the success it produces and CHOOSE to follow it. We want to succeed and by living this way we know we are giving ourselves the best opportunity to fulfill our potential. You can try to say we are brain washed or that we don't see that there is any other way, trust me I have tried other ways and from experience I know they are not as effective. For those who think they run is into the ground, and the 7 standing at the end run the races, you are gravely mistaken. We had about 20 guys come out for our team this year, less on the girls. To make teams that are able to compete at such a high level our coaches must be very in tune with how all of us are feeling. Many say this is nothing like college and college coaches never do this, well college coaches also have the luxury of hand picking top recruits and if they don't work out, replacing them with the next big high school star. When you have only 8 or 9 athletes who can compete on a high level an injured runner can end our teams season.

In closing I would just like to say that it amazes me how many people find it necessary to bash our program. The stories they produce and they spread are quite funny, sometimes hurtful but always false. If these people would simply just focus on themselves and their own teams training maybe they would find the love and enjoyment that running has given us. Through our pain in training we form bonds that give us the courage to run to our limits. That is why I am defending our program. Everyone team member past and present, coaches and athletes are dedicated and loyal to not only our team but to the sport, we find it discouraging that other runners are so quick to put us down and call us crazy. Instead of raising their level of running and competing with us for the betterment running as a sport.

Sorry for any grammar errors

Paul Merriman

Since there are so many FM people posting here and that their secret to success is not excessive training I'm hoping that one of you will post some of your summer, early season, and late season schedules. I would be interested in learning what the training of such a successful program is.

Don't do it FM... Don't get ripped apart.

runners coming out of the woodwork for FM....any saratoga streaks out there dying to type?

FM - best of luck this week - win both!

A 2nd for toga would be nice as well.

trying to learn wrote:

Since there are so many FM people posting here and that their secret to success is not excessive training I'm hoping that one of you will post some of your summer, early season, and late season schedules. I would be interested in learning what the training of such a successful program is.

It seems like the thread has gotten a bit sidetracked. I appreciate reading the support that the runners have for the coaches but would like to actually see some details on HOW they train throughout the summer, fall, etc. Thanks.