19 year old Brit - 65.49 half, great interview

Yes, you really do. It's just a different way of doing it. Nothing crazy really. By 18, you're not a child. They seperate the men from the boys (women from the girls) in the beginning.

In the first year, everybody learns the basics (and they actually study medical school type science) and those that don't succeed get weeded out. They actually learn They get one more shot the next year if they want.

It is a different way of doing it in the U.S. Is it better? Maybe, maybe not. My Australian-French friend's daughter took the first year of medical school in France and didn't make it because she wasn't serious. She's now studying journalism. I think that's a good thing. What if in the U.S., you go through undergrad and get into medical school and don't like it? What if you feel trapped because of the debt? What if you decide to quit medical school?

Look at what happens in American education. There are university presidents making many hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. There are many administrators making hundreds of thousands a year. You have a student loan industry. I don't know if this situation exists in France, but I'm guessing not.

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Here is the first comment you wrote:

I wonder if you forgot that you wrote this comment when you wrote your response. Why must Americans go through four years of undergrad and pay thousands of dollars ($25k-$100k) if undergrad is a joke? Is it possible that the real joke is the structure of this system? I do know that there are six year schools in the U.S. but that isn't the norm and it still costs thousands of dollars. Maybe six year direct-entry medical schools, dental schools, and pharmacy schools should become the norm. The American system is good for individuals who don't have to worry about money (the rich or the very poor). It may be better than European countries if you are a career changer with time (because you can apply multiple times to many schools around the country) and money.

Here are is some good info:

The first year of medical study (PCEM1) is open to any student holding a baccalauréat. The number of students admitted for the second year of study (PCEM2) at each of France’s faculties of medicine is set annually by ministerial decree so as to control the number of doctors in training. The number of international students admitted into PCEM2 is also subject to quota, expressed as a percentage of the number of French students admitted. Within this regulatory framework, each university is free to set its own curriculum, the content of which varies from one university to another.

In 2007, the rate of success for the entry in PCEM2 was 16%.

ORGANIZATION OF STUDIES IN FRANCE

Medical education in France is divided into three cycles or stages that lead ultimately to a government-sanctioned diploma of doctor of medicine.

Currently undergoing reorganization, the first year will come to 4 separate competitions (medical, dental, midwifery, pharmacy). 80% of the events will be common, the remaining 20% will focus on specific modules. The possibilities of reorientation, during or at the end of the year, will be extended. Finally, it is planned to open these studies to other profiles strictly scientific : law, humanities, political science, commerce.

The first stage (PCEM) lasts two years. Students who pass a rigorous examination at the end of the first year move on to the second year. The success rate on the exam is about

20%. Each faculty of medicine may admit a maximum of 8% international students (students from outside the European Union), provided their scores are high enough. To be

admitted, a foreign student’s score on the exam must be equal to or greater than the score of the lowest-ranking French student admitted. The same entrance examination is used for medicine, dentistry, and midwifery. Students who do not pass the exam on the first try may repeat the first year of study, but only once.

The second stage of medical education (DCEM) takes four years. Students receive a monthly stipend for the last three years. In 2006 the stipend ranged from 124 to 270 euros per month. To move on to the third stage of medical education, students must pass a series of tests of their theoretical knowledge and complete 36 months of hospital internships in various specialties. They must also be on call 36 times in three years (they are paid 25 euros for each period on call) and attend required seminars.

Completion of the second stage is marked by the award of a Certificate of clinical and therapeutic synthesis.

Success in national classifying examinations (formerly known as the residency examination) allows students to enter a specialized program. There are 11 specialties, including general medicine. The choice of specialty and residency location are determined by the candidate’s examination score.

In the third stage of medical education students elect one of two options: general medicine or a another specialty, all of which lead to the diplôme d’études spécialisées (DES, or diploma of specialized study). The DES is offered in 30 specialty areas.

After a three-year residency candidates in general medicine receive their degree. During this phase of medical education, candidates perform full-time hospital functions, spending six-month periods in different departments. Residents are paid 1,336 to 2,052 euros per month (the amount rises as the residency progresses) and 115 to 126 euros each time they are on call.

Residencies in specialties other than general medicine last 4–5 years, depending on the specialty. Some DES degrees are supplemented by further training. The diplôme d’études

spécialisées complémentaire (DESC, or diploma of complementary specialized study) is earned in two years. Generalists may pursue the capacité en médecine (CAPME).

In 2007 a new DESC degree was created in palliative medicine and pain management.

With the DES (and possibly a DESC) in hand, residents defend a thesis before a jury before being awarded the diplôme d’état de docteur en médecine (state diploma of doctor of medicine).

http://editions.campusfrance.org/filieres/en/medecine_en.pdf

Here is the description of an American who tried (and I think failed) medical school in France:

Unlike in the U.S., French high school students go straight to med school -- no in-between B.A. degree. There is no entrance exam or application process for FRENCH students. ALL French high school students who apply are admitted freely into the first year of med school or "PCEM1" or "P1". However, there is a quota for the number of students ("numerus clausus") who can go on to the 2nd year ("PCEM2" or "P2"). This was instigated by the French government in an attempt to reduce national health-related costs (which

includes education).

Thus, P1 is a competition year where you sit through classes and take exams ("concours") in December and May according to which you are ranked. The exams are mostly multiple-multiple choice questions (causality, grouped

responses) with the exception of humanities which is essay based (6 15-minute, 200-max-word essays).

The numerus clausus changes from school to school.

At the University of Nice, the figure has been around 130 places for doctors. For the academic year 2008-2009, nearly 2000 students initially enrolled, over 900 students dropped out around October (deadline for partial fee refund),

leaving the remaining to scrabble for the 130 places. Dentists, physiotherapists, midwives are also thrown into the same program the first year (I don't remember the allotments for them) -- you actually fill in a "choice" sheet where you rank your choices: medicine, midwivery, physiotherapy, dentistry, or repeat the year.

http://riviera.angloinfo.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=153057

Unless you have a photographic memory, P1 is 8 months of nonstop studying, cramming details, often presented in very non-pedagogically desirable order (1st week in one class you will learn about things based on your knowledge of organic chem which you won't have til the 2nd semester). I dunno maybe there's a different curriiculum in French high schools....

They will give you the stats on the first day of class:

* no guarantees that you will make the cut even if you paid for private tutoring ("prepa" -- which can cost around €2-3k)

* the older you are, the less likely you are to succeed

* you are officially allowed to repeat the 1st year once -- but much less than half of the 2nd timers ("doublants") make it through the 2nd time. This year there were about 200-300 repeaters. Via special dean request, you can repeat a 2nd time ("triplant")

* having high honors in high school does not seem to put you at an avantage over other students

* ALL of the students who did make the cut had only 1 thing in common: they gave up ALL recreational activities and studied every moment of their time

You will hear stories of students getting nerve damage and such a bad case of hemorrhoids that they had to drop out.

Half the time, there's no time to understand or do extra reading that most American students would be used to -- not all, but most of the profs say literally, "Do not bother understanding just memorize this word for word". There are some great profs otherwise, though....

And one more:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=531720

I've been thinking about trying to go to medical school in France but after reading threads about this subject and international medical school in general, am unsure about doing so. I guess I'd like to go to France because it would be cheaper and I had a good experience studying abroad there for a year (the cycling, especially, was excellent). Getting a chance to live there again for a several years would be a dream.

The question is whether it would be worth going there given that it seems that I would face a stigma should I try to come back to the US and practice. Also, since I will have my undergraduate degree by the time I would apply/be accepted (barring some catastrophic event), is it really worth more or less starting over when I attend a French university (especially with the extreme competition that occurs in the first year)?

(blah blah blah)

Responses:

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Studying medicine in France is no joke. It's medical schools are first of all uber-competitive to get into. And it's a pyramid system...so you start of with tons of students and they keep getting weeded out, one by one. At the end of the year, the students take an exam called the "concours" which is just a nightmare....very few students make it every year......

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It is sometimes even cheaper. For example I come from a family which has not too much money), so the State supports almost all of my tuition. In fact I pay 4.30 euros per annum.

But competition is tough in the first year. When I was in the first year, we were only 1400 for 180 admitted to second year. This varies according to medical schools, but in general 10% to 15% are admitted to second year.

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I read over the first year curriculum for different med schools in France.

And it is true that it goes muuuuuch deeper than general pure sciences.

I graduated from human physiology / biomedical sciences and even I didn't know everything in that curriculum. However, I do feel that about 75% of it will be a review for me.

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My cousin wanted to be a cardiologist, but since she landed in the 41-80 category, she had to go into dentistry (there are people who swap... e.g someone who placed into surgery can swap with someone who placed in dentistry, but that is rare... most of the swapping happens between dentistry and PT). She had the option of retaking a year of school, then retaking the exam, but she decided against it, because if she were to not place in the top 120 the second time around, she could not continue in medicine. Fortunately, she ended liking dentistry and is now enjoying a successful career in oral surgery.

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Hi !

I'm french, and medecine student in France (University of Brest).

I can tell you : there's no university in France teaching in english... only in french !

Also, when you say the price is 150 euros per year, you are right. BUT... it's not the price of your year of studying (wich is free), but your cotisation to the social security (global health insurance) for the year.

If you want to be a french medecine student, you have to pass an extremely hard exam (only in french), "le concours".

What is it ?

It's an exam at the end of the first year where there's a limited number of places per university. This number, call "le numerus clausus" is different between the universities (the number is set by the governement), but of course, the number of candidate is high in the university where the numerus clausus is high. You can estimate the ratio NC/candidate from 10 to 15%, it depends of the university. In small towns it's near 15%. In big cities (as Paris) it's around 10%.

That means, only 10 to 15% of the student passing the exam have the right to register in second year of Medecine, in the university where they pass "le concours".

And also, you can only pass the "concours" only twice. And when i say twice, it means twice in all university. If you miss the "concours" twice in Paris, you are not allowed to try in Marseilles or another city, it's done, it's finish for you.

But, if you have the courage to work hard and be in the lucky laureate of the "concours", you can continue studying medecine (for free...) to the end of you diploma (6 year of university + 3/4 year of internate)

In France, to be a doctor you have to be a very very hard worker to be on the 10/15% first at the "concours", just be the best, in fact. You can be very rich, you can be the son of the mayor, if you are not intellgent and hard worker, no way for you to be a doctor.

But something great : you know very fast (only 1 or 2 year after high school) if you'll be a doctor, or not !

(but to know what kind or doctor you'll be, it's another story, another "concours" for choosing what intern you'll be, just before starting your internate)

Fairness is important to the French. For example, I believe at the end of every school year, all high school teachers are moved randomly around the country to administer and grade exams.

Thanks for the insightful info!

As far as my "undergrad is a joke comment", I guess I dug myself a hole by saying that at first but it wasn't meant as literal as it came off. Undergrad over the span of 4 years is pretty easy to accomplish (and do well GPA wise) in 6-7 hrs a day committed to school work and that is what I was try to convey at first. You still do learn a lot during those 4 years but it could be condensed to, say, 2-3 years if one serious about medical school. I think trying to cram the basics in inside of one year is a bit much but then again it must be working well enough if it is prevalent throughout other countries of the world.

I do agree that attending college is astronomically expensive at some schools but you as far as an education goes at the college level, you get out of it what you put into it. What I mean is, you don't have to go to an Ivy League college, where you would be in debt $100k+ over 4 years, to acquire the knowledge it takes to be successful in the real world. You can learn the basics and more from any institution many of which would likely tally to less than $25k (your low end pay range) over 4 years. When you put it in perspective to what you will end up making post collegiately with a degree, $25k is really a very minimal amount of money to pay up front over 4 years regardless of one’s economic standing.

Yeah, it's different in the UK. The main selection process happens before the first year, and generally involves interviews, tests (UKCAT and BMAT) and getting at least AAA in A levels, so anyone weak gets weeded out early. Some universities have a pre-med year, with the possibility of getting chucked out after a year. Others do 3 years pre-clinical (eg. Oxbridge), then go on to clinical studies, others have students in hospitals from day 1. In any case, the workload is intense. The medics seem to have much more work than most people where I am (Oxford), and the XC team is still full of them. Most of them are nutters when it comes to work, but not as much as that guy!

I knew a kid that in high school as a 17-18 year old was running 200mpw on some occasions and never really much less than 140. I believe this kid, although I think that kind of mileage is stupid. It may appear to make someone incredibly fast early on, but after some point he won't be able to improve much more or he will break down. Same thing happened to my high school buddy. He never got any faster cuz he had nowhere to go with his training

There's always going to be somewhere to go with his training - you can do your runs run faster or for longer.

He's built up to this from a young age and does heaps of conditioning work - perhaps that's why he's able to absorb this level of training.

I'm not saying it's ideal and I'd suggest speaking to a few of the old boys who have "been there, done that" about tapering would be beneficial, but fair play to him for having a go. It's not all about being able to knock out a "good for age" time and buying your way onto a masters team in 20 years.

True, there have been those that have run faster off less, but perhaps they were blessed with a greater natural level of performance. He's clearly blessed with the ability to absorb huge amounts of training, so if he's willing to make those sacrifices for a sport he loves, good on him.