Why do people find the idea of foreigners in the NCAA so apalling?

I don't think people really care about the foreigners themselves, or even the increased competition; it's when coaches of these teams get credit for being "good coaches" that people dislike. It's such a cowardly way to be "successful."

It is typically so addictive that the coaches rely on it every year too (not just once in a while).

Arkansas of the 90's....The old Butler coach, now at New Mexico....current Alabama squad.....HEY, GREAT JOB GUYS!! You're sure to be seen as the next Lydiard or Bowerman when you retire!! Hahaha

pgirl wrote:

Arkansas of the 90's....HEY, GREAT JOB GUYS!! You're sure to be seen as the next Lydiard or Bowerman when you retire!! Hahaha

Are you saying that you wouldn't put John McDonell in the same category as Bowerman? I think I know some people who may disagree with you on that one.

Yeah, he should have left McDonnell off that list. Not so much because he's developed a ton of US talent, but ore because his track teams were so strong too.

Yorick wrote:

[quote]la la land wrote:

OK, so Kelly won as a senior at age 23. That means he was 20 as a freshman when he ran NCAA's.

The first American at the NCAA's this year was Chris Derrick. He's 19 years old (19 years and 42 days) and he's a sophomore. Does that help you at all?

It's an undeniable fact that foreign students in general are a year or two older than US counterparts. You'll find a few exceptions, of course, but the general reality is simply a matter of record. I don't mean to single out Providence, it's true of virtually any college that has international athletes.

Or, Kelly redshirted at some point (like most everyone else) and was 19 as a true freshman (like most everyone else).

Here's the results of Mid-West Regional Footlocker. Look at their ages. 2/3's of them are 17 years old as seniors. When a foreigner comes in at age 20, don't you see that they have a huge advantage over the US kid who won't be 20 until his junior year?

1 463 Lukas Verzbicas 16 10 ORLAND HILLS IL 15:34 5:01

2 2 Walter Schafer 18 12 CENTENNIAL CO 15:41 5:03

3 69 Tyler Byrne 18 12 GEORGETOWN IN 15:46 5:05

4 230 Nathan Karr 17 12 ANN ARBOR MI 15:46 5:05

5 140 Scott Fauble 18 12 GOLDEN CO 15:47 5:05

6 692 Martin Grady 18 12 BURR RIDGE IL 15:47 5:05

7 24 Colby Alexander 18 12 STRONGSVILLE OH 15:49 5:06

8 370 Ryan Poland 17 12 WESTMINSTER CO 15:50 5:06

9 7 Danny Nicolls 17 12 PARKER CO 15:55 5:08

10 646 Chris Walden 17 11 CARMEL IN 15:55 5:08

11 293 James Martin 17 11 FORT WAYNE IN 15:56 5:08

12 513 Aaron Beattie 17 12 NAPERVILLE IL 16:02 5:10

13 705 Jack Seeberg 17 12 NORTHFIELD IL 16:02 5:10

14 4 Nico Composto 17 12 CHICAGO IL 16:06 5:11

15 251 Maksim Korolev 17 12 HARRISONVILLE MO 16:06 5:11

Derrick is in fact the norm. Most US sophomores are 19 years old, as the above shows.

Do you think that it takes NO coaching to coach an international athlete??

You have no idea......

la la land wrote:

Here's the results of Mid-West Regional Footlocker. Look at their ages. 2/3's of them are 17 years old as seniors. When a foreigner comes in at age 20, don't you see that they have a huge advantage over the US kid who won't be 20 until his junior year?

1 463 Lukas Verzbicas 16 10 ORLAND HILLS IL 15:34 5:01

2 2 Walter Schafer 18 12 CENTENNIAL CO 15:41 5:03

3 69 Tyler Byrne 18 12 GEORGETOWN IN 15:46 5:05

4 230 Nathan Karr 17 12 ANN ARBOR MI 15:46 5:05

5 140 Scott Fauble 18 12 GOLDEN CO 15:47 5:05

6 692 Martin Grady 18 12 BURR RIDGE IL 15:47 5:05

7 24 Colby Alexander 18 12 STRONGSVILLE OH 15:49 5:06

8 370 Ryan Poland 17 12 WESTMINSTER CO 15:50 5:06

9 7 Danny Nicolls 17 12 PARKER CO 15:55 5:08

10 646 Chris Walden 17 11 CARMEL IN 15:55 5:08

11 293 James Martin 17 11 FORT WAYNE IN 15:56 5:08

12 513 Aaron Beattie 17 12 NAPERVILLE IL 16:02 5:10

13 705 Jack Seeberg 17 12 NORTHFIELD IL 16:02 5:10

14 4 Nico Composto 17 12 CHICAGO IL 16:06 5:11

15 251 Maksim Korolev 17 12 HARRISONVILLE MO 16:06 5:11

Derrick is in fact the norm. Most US sophomores are 19 years old, as the above shows.

I'm counting seven 17 yo seniors. Just under half. Far from 'two thirds'.

uncleB wrote:

Racism.

Irish runners, New Zealanders, English, Canadian (white ones) are often treated like adopted sons (or daughters) by US fans.

Africans are not.

"Racism. Racism. Racism."

Yawn.

--Maybe it is not really racism.

Maybe it is sociology.

As in "people relate more to people who are like them" which is FAR DIFFERENT than Racism.

While I can appreciate the accomplishments of someone with a far different background than myself; it is unlikely I am going to have any quick rapport with, or identifying interest in them, i.e. connect as quickly with them as a personality or in their personal story.

This is exactly why NBC started their "Up Close and Personal" series during the Olympics.

The better we know a personality, the easier it is for us to relate and grow a "rooting interest" in their athletic efforts or accomplishments.

Racism is not always the answer to understanding social dynamics.

Have you read what Henry Rono shared about not being able to relate to this society?

Well I could not relate to Henry Rono being this far older foreigner dropping in out of the blue like from Mars, and immediately dusting the Pac Eight/Ten and the rest of the NCAA. I could watch in awe at his marvelous athletic ability, but there was no personal investment -- he was an alien.

(Not to mention the fact that he was essentially a Pro, paid by John Chaplin to run and Drink. --Rono has reported all this, including the fact that Chaplin had smoothed the way so that Rono's professors would actually tell him he did not need to come to classes.)

As to athletes that come from common wealth type countries, well a huge part of USA history is related to that, and if you are caucasian -- you might just relate more to someone who looks like you. Is it racism when afro-american athletes relate more to other afro-american athletes? I don't think so, and I have experienced it up close.

At my D1 school I ran both the 800 and the 400. Which meant part of the time I trained with the mid and distance guys, and part of the year with the 400 guys. Well for 3 of my 4 years, the 400 guys were all black. We were from such different background in life we could not relate to each other at first. And it was NOT RACISM. By the end of the season we had gotten to know each other and there was complete team attitude. They rooted for me, I for them, we met each others families at duel meets. The invited me to their parties, me to ours. Sometimes it is just getting to know each other better.

--My advice to any coach who finds that their track team is lacking in team spirit: create a way in which the black kids and the white kids get to know each other. We started mid-week team dinners at my school, and team spirit, and results went up markedly. Something happens when everyone roots for everyone with a sense of human involvement deeper than school or team spirit alone. Etc.

...Let me guess, you think a Kenyan exchange student adopts and roots for an Irish American runner, with as much gusto as he roots for a Kenyan athlete on scholarship?

RACISM IS NOT ALWAYS THE ANSWER TO DIFFERENCES BETWEEN PEOPLE.

Sometimes it is lack of familiarity. Sometimes it is cultural. Sometimes it is class.

You can add an "ism" to those last two words if you like. But study after study after study, has shown that people always tend to relate to those who are more like them -- and that includes perfectly wonderful people from EVERY RACE.

For me the main issue in foreign athletes is AGE. There needs to be a lower entry age limit for Foreign Athletes specifically.

26 year old foreign freshman, of any culture or race, total bullshit. You don't get to start in USA high school athletics at age 22. For athletic purposes you should not get to be a 26 year old Kenyan, or Irishman. I'd set the age limit at 20. (Although some will claim that the Kenyans will use falsified birth records.)

The other limit I would add, would be no more than Two foreign athletes per XC or Track squad. No more flooding your team with Kenyans, or 3 Irishman, a Kiwi and a Brit, etc.

Let's have a level field age wise, and numbers wise.

Yorick wrote:

la la land wrote:

The foreign Providence freshman are typically 20 years old coming in the door.

Somehow, though, Kelly won NCAA cross when he was 23, as did Smith.

Cullen was 23 as a senior, as was Fagan.

In comparison, Ryan Vail is currently 23, as was Rupp this spring. Let's not even bring the Mormons into the conversation.

Mark Wetmore often makes comments about the injustice of foreigners in the NCAA, yet Barringer is 23, Goucher was 23 when he won NCAA cross, Gorton was 23 for her final track season, and Heinonen was 24 when he helped CU win nationals in 2006.

I'm not seeing the inequity.

You are not seeing the inequity because you are either stupid or making the wrong point / argument.

BEFORE foreign athletes were an issue in the NCAA, the rule was always that you had "5 years to compete/complete 4." 23 year old seniors has always been Standard.

23 year old Freshman?

Not reasonable, or fair.

Choose your words carefully, no one is saying "hate," as in hating the runners.

You can hate the unfairness of the system, and still appreciate, even like, even party with the athletes (I did.)

The athletes are usually nice, great people.

I would just have rather competed with 28 and 30 year old Kenyans in the open realm, not in the Pac Ten.

Wasn't Rono a 26 year old freshman? OR turn 26 his freshman year?

And aren't you the person who was telling Duck alums on this site that Chaplin's Kenyans were fair?

Only to have Henry's book and interviews reveal that Chaplin paid Rono, and arranged it so Henry got a free pass in his classes.

Was it you telling the younger American athletes "if you don't like it, just run faster"?

(Completely obviating the reality that the NCAA serves on a majority level as a developing ground for USA athletics, not to mention the reality that for most NCAA athletes, it will be their final organized athletics experience in their lives...why not have a chance at winning a title rather than giving it to someone from another country -- another country that has no scholarships offered in reciprocity to USA students, or student athletes for that matter...)

The system is a SCAM.

The NCAA making Billions as the NFL's farm team, and Athletes getting Nothing = SCAM.

Allowing teams like Alabama, or UTEP to flood their teams with foreigners = SCAM.

There is a thing called Good Faith, and these coaches that load up on foreign athletes - are not efforting in good faith to serve the best interests of the athletes of the community, or country that affords them the benefit of their employment.

The entire Chaplin / WSU / Kenyan era was a SCAM.

I don't know what else you could call it.

I imagine if Joe Montana published a biography where he outed Notre Dame for paying him to play football, for arranging for him to have grades without going to class... That maybe the NCAA would investigate - but because they are a SCAM, they would probably let the story fade away.

The fact that WSU and the NCAA have so little ethics that they are happy to let Henry Rono's admissions of total NCAA and WSU Academic violations SLIDE...is even more evidence that the whole system is a SCAM.

I guess when you run what is essentially a scam; it is only a matter of time before a sociopath figures it out - and engages in a complete amplification of that scam = John Chaplin.

9 out of 15 are 17 years old = 60 percent.

Nobody will be 20 during their frosh year. Most foreign athletes are 20 or 21 during freshman year. The US runners are 18 and 19. Those extra two years mean a lot - it means that the college coach doesn't have to use the first 2 years on scholarship as development time for the US runner, he can get the foreign guy who already has that developmental time in him. So, he passes on the US runner.

1 1 Megan Goethals 17 12 ROCHESTER MI 17:24 5:36

2 2 Emily Sisson 18 12 CHESTERFIELD MO 17:42 5:42

3 89 Katie Flood 17 12 DES MOINES IA 17:48 5:44

4 3 Ashlie Decker 18 12 DES MOINES IA 17:51 5:45

5 151 Kelsey Lakowske 16 11 BOULDER CO 17:52 5:45

6 5 Diane Robison 17 12 CHESTERFIELD MO 18:09 5:51

7 146 Sara Kroll 17 12 WESTLAND MI 18:15 5:53

8 57 Avery Clifton 17 12 TOPEKA KS 18:16 5:53

9 105 Marya Haegler 17 12 CASCADE WI 18:17 5:53

10 201 Shannon Osika 16 11 WATERFORD MI 18:37 6:00

11 195 Waverly Neer 17 11 RUSSIAVILLE IN 18:41 6:01

12 125 Jessica Jackson 16 11 NEOSHO MO 18:45 6:02

13 295 Allyson Winchester 16 11 WAYLAND MI 18:45 6:03

14 224 Colleen Quigley 17 11 ST. LOUIS MO 18:46 6:03

15 111 Maria Hauger 15 9 SHAKOPEE MN 18:47 6:03

The girls also show that 17 is the norm for US high school 12 graders. 12 of the 15 girls are or will be 17 years old as 12th graders running xcountry. So, when they race the internationals who come in at 20 - 21, how is that not an advantage?

la la land wrote:

9 out of 15 are 17 years old = 60 percent.

Nobody will be 20 during their frosh year. Most foreign athletes are 20 or 21 during freshman year. The US runners are 18 and 19. Those extra two years mean a lot - it means that the college coach doesn't have to use the first 2 years on scholarship as development time for the US runner, he can get the foreign guy who already has that developmental time in him. So, he passes on the US runner.

Nine of the fifteen are indeed 17 years old. Yet only seven are 17 y.o. seniors. Eight of the fifteen will be 19 years old during their freshman year of cross country - just like Kelly, Cullen, Fagan, Smith, and anyone else from PC you care to bring up.

Not sure where you are getting the 20 y.o. freshman thing from, I have yet to see any data to back it up.

Three Providence "sophomores" from this year's team:

Lee Carey, Sophomore, England, 21 years old, 84 days

Dominic Channon, Sophomore, NZ, 20 years, 305 days

Julian Matthews, Sophomore, NZ, 21, 130 days

I have US sophomores on my team and most of them were 19 this fall. Same with the US sophomores on Providence's team.

By the way, Keith Kelly never red-shirted a year, so you can hop off of that pony anytime you like.

Kim Smith was born Nov. 19, 1981 - she won the NCAA cross country title in 2004, so she just turned 23. The US runner who won this year 21 years, 287 days. Notice any difference? That would be the "normal" age of a US college senior.

I'm not putting these athletes down - they are fine athletes and people and they are doing a great job at representing their schools - I'm just saying that they have an age advantage over most US athletes. All but the willfully blind can see that.

Fair play to ye on the Kelly bit.

Is Channon one of these 20 yr. old freshman you keep bringing up? Or is he some sort of an exception?

Would you be going apeshit if Barringer won? She'd be even older than any of PC's XC champs.

Some people are old for their grade, some are younger. Nationality has nothing to do with it. I was 21 and a couple months my junior year at NCAAs, does that give me some sort of advantage over my teammate who is nine months younger than me but started training (September of 7th grade) the exact same day as me?

If most of Colorado's athletes started college at age 20 and graduated at age 24 - unless they red-shirted and then hit 25 - I would point out that they had an advantage similar to many foreign athletes.

The BYU athletes get the same flack, as they go on a 2 year mission and return significantly older than their competitors.

So, in general, when athletes get an extra year or two, there is a sense that the playing field is not quite even. And I think that's a very significant part of the reason for anti-foreign sentiment.

If the foreign athletes were coming over to compete at age 16 and graduating at age 20, then I doubt that there would be much resentment. But I also doubt that there would be many scholarships for them either.

so derrick lost to two guys who are five and four years older than him, respectively. And let's say that he gets only one ncaa title at xc, after Chelanga graduates (he nearly beat McNeil). To even things up, why not have unlimited eligibility to some given age, say, 25? Of course, we will still get age cheating from Kenyans and Ethiopians, and guys like Derrick would still go pro long before they hit 25, but it might even some things up. The real culprit here is the limitation on xc/track to 12.6 scholarships for men. Why give 18 to the women? Ridiculous.

Gotta make sure that 3rd-string punter gets a full ride.

Yorick wrote:

I'm counting seven 17 yo seniors. Just under half. Far from 'two thirds'.

7 out of 12 seniors isn't just under half. Its 3/5ths pretty much.