that should be "those who left the Rift Valley."
that should be "those who left the Rift Valley."
In the US, we are a team-oriented sporting culture. Our best youth athletes pursue team sports, which tend to be more social, fun, and involve less individual responsibility and pressure. In addition, you don't have to search very long here on letsun to find any number of threads dissuading (coaches and/or parents of) youth runners to concentrate on training too serioulsy, too early. Yet certain competing-sports (soccer, baseball, basketball) concentrate and train often from early ages, because that is what the parents and culture like to see.
I have spent my long soccer-coaching career, and lesser track coaching career, explaining options to soccer / basketball / lacrosse type guys, who show more promise in running (based on tryout runs, daily fitness training, etc.), which they have never really tried, than pursuing their team sports, year round. Not many soccer coaches will be honest enough with a kid who starts in the midfield, or comes off the bench, telling him he could potentially do much better for himself in the long run as a middle/distance runner.
Two US elite runners fit into this mold are Andrew Wheating and Galen Rupp. Both were age-level "elite" youth soccer players, on their respective state Olympic Development Teams. Wheating's high school soccer coach spent 2 fall soccer tryouts talking Wheating out of soccer, succeeding on the second try. (He then said, "My greatest coaching achievement is talking a boy out of my sport.")
Rupp, of course, was talked out of soccer by Alberto Salazar.
How many 5'8" basketball point guards and soccer midfielders, who can run all day, are there across the country, whose coaches are more selfish, opting to keep just another above-average player on the team for numbers-sake, who shows more promise in a competing sport?
It's a cultural thing. The athletes are there, but not many, including their own parents, are guiding them to pursue options at which they may be more genetically suited to excel.
I've also noticed a shortage of the children of Ethiopian/Kenyan immigrants succeeding in American track. There are significant population of both of these groups yet their children (1st generation Americans born to two immigrant parents) are not as successful at running. I wonder why this is?
Malcolm Gladwell has a pretty interesting idea of why the chinese are better than americans at math in his book Outliers. It is pretty convincing and culturally based.
Is that the theory based on the ability to count to 10 in a designated amount of time?
jonesy. wrote:
on here you get a lot of apparently good American runners and they seem to always advise that we not 'race' our tempos, that we hold back. Canova argues that this is the difference, that Kenyans run 12-40 minute tempos very very fast,
When did Canova ever say that?
Have your considered that the African college runner has realized he doesn't have the talent to run as professional so has decided that instead of wasting his time getting from a 13:40 to a 13:20 he is going to spend those hours studying and getting set for his future? Imposing your goals and values on others can lead to misunderstandings.
kenyan question wrote:
I'm seeing now that there is a train of thought saying that the Africans are kicking our ass in distance running because they train harder than us and I wanted to ask letsrun how they felt about that.
Heres my take:
I've been training with runners from Africa all through out my running carrer, starting in highschool and now as a post collegiate.
Where I attended highschool happend to be one of the places where highschool aged refugess from Sudan and Somalia went when they got to the US. My coach (being the smart guy he was) knew how talented these runners were and often got them to run for us. There was no doubt these runners were talented but also were incredibly lazy so much so that my coach had to eventually kick them off the team for missing practice, coming late to practice, and even often walking during runs or hiding in friends houses when they were suppose to be running.
I went to a pretty succesful college program (qualified for nationals 3 years) that was large majority kenyan. It was the same deal down there, the kenyans all though incredibly talented and kicked my ass all through out college often did the bear minium the coaches asked them to do and often missed or came late to practice. The coaches however didn't cut these guys because our team was not deep and one guy missing out of our top 5 would be ruin us.
Now I train post collegiatly (up in boulder) and sometimes train with a group of kenyans. While these guys train harder then the other African born runners I have encountered in the past they definitly dont train as hard to me. The popular thing with them although is to miss runs or work outs simply because "it's too cold out" which has been happening alot lately.
To confirm my believes that this isn't just my personal experience I bough the Train Hard, Win Easy the kenyan way book and compared it to the workouts of the Run with the Champions book. While the kenyans in the book do train hard they dont train any harder then our top runners or do any more milege.
Why didnt any of these top non-Kenyan runners test themselves and all their hard training in Paris or Rotterdam?
Some have stated that Africans don't have more talent, but train harder. It's more likely that they do have talent and, because of this talent, can train "harder" (ie, faster) from an outsider's perspective. Who do you think trains faster most days of the week, a 27:00 minute 10K runner, or a 30-minute runner? But this doesn't prove anything except that fast runners can also train fast.
So 3 examples out of hundreds who went to college in US compared to scores of world class athletes who trained in their homeland
'Isn't Mo Farah the best UK distance runner right now? Where he is from? Again, is all this coincidence?'
Yes, but he comes from Mogadishu,Somalia (sea level) not Kenya or Ethiopia, and has lived in the UK for over 10 years.
He did do one thing though in the last couple of years. Went to train for months at a time at Kenyan & Ethiopian training camps. You may be right that their adaption may be more complete but an athlete can cut back that advantage by following his example instead of looking for excuses.
adaptation and evolution.
white people are domesticated animals. their bodies do not handle physical stress very well.
that is why white people are good at low impact sports like skiing, cycling, walking, mountain climbing, bungee jumping.
as my kenyan roomate used to tell me... americans think having to walk to the grocery store is hard and painful. hard and painful to me was being circumsized at the age of 13 with a sharp rock
(true story)
Cannot read wrote:
jonesy. wrote:on here you get a lot of apparently good American runners and they seem to always advise that we not 'race' our tempos, that we hold back. Canova argues that this is the difference, that Kenyans run 12-40 minute tempos very very fast,
When did Canova ever say that?
He said it here:
In any case, what the Kenyans have, and the Europeans and Americans at the moment don't have, is, in their very simple type of training, the most important thing for middle distance. Long distance — not long, long, long. Maybe from 20 to 40 minutes very, very, very fast. Very fast.So everyone in this country has a threshold level higher than in Europe. Why Europeans are now good in marathon, for example, but no more in 5 and 10k? We have [Stefano] Baldini and others, but... Because in marathon, the system of training is the most important mean of success, while in 5 and 10k it's not as important as the power of the engine. So Europeans and also, I think, Americans are no more able to work and build themselves at high intensity. Americans use a lot of intervals or a lot of long runs, slowly. But I don't know how many use, for example, a long middle [distance] run very fast. I don't know.
http://www.mensracing.com/athletes/interviews/2005/renatocanova.html
This should not be a secret 4 years later, and if you don't know this, I'd suggest that you're not even qualified to discuss the issue.
People on letsrun seem to want to talk about how many miles the Kenyans are running....but how hard they're running (some) of those miles is a critical part. The lower lactate levels from hard medium runs and the better running economy the Ethiopians get from flat out sprints in spikes are critical points that explain the difference.
I've said this before, it's the way they train that distinguishes African runners from western runners, the secret is that African runners hit race pace every day...it becomes natural to them
jonesy. wrote: Malmo, who did his morning recovery runs at an average of well under 6 minutes per mile (in other words, a tough guy whose easy runs were all well within a minute of his marathon pace), would still run 4 mile tempos at over 5 minute mile pace, if I remember correctly.
Really? That's news to me. Perhaps there's a reason why I haven't hired you as my spokesperson.
Nothing personal, but for a "post-collegiate" you have terrible control over your grammar. I had to pause several times, because I was appalled by the utter destruction of the English language. Lastly, go read The Lore of Running, it explains the genetic advantages that African athletes have over the Caucasian Race. Keep it Real!
Marius, I tried emailing you (from your website) to get in contact with Are Nakkim.
Reasons why East Africans are better:
1. They are genetically gifted as distance runner. You don't have to be a statistician to know that there is an overabundance of winners and WR holders from this area of the world. ( Watch the last lap of the recent World XC in Amman and you will see it in black and white (no pun)).
2. Along with this they have clearly seen the financial incentives for this, and work hard on using their talent to their benefit. This financial benefit affects far more Africans that it does Americans where only the very top can survive on running. Even a small winning is big money in Kenya, so more will try out for running.
3. When you have this level of talent, training "hard" is very relative. A highly gifted athlete does not need to work anywhere near the level of a less gifted one to reach the same time goal.
4. African athletes are highly "trainable". They are dedicated to the hardships involved and willing to sacrifice much more, because again the financial benefits are far higher.
5. Most Kenyans who come to the US as student athletes are here for an education, NOT because they want to turn pro. They will do what it takes to make the team, study hard and make a future for themselves.
6. Top caucasian distance runners are serious outliers, which is why there is never any real depth in the US and Europe. How many have broken 13min in a 5k?
7. And even for these outliers, they have to train extremely hard to get to the top of the world. Harder than the Africans probably.
8. This is really not rocket science. Which brings me to my final point. African runners are much more aware of their internal "feel". They know when to push it in training and when not too more naturally. Western runners are far too dependent on technology, coaches, splits, pace, HR etc etc.
9. So are they unbeatable? No, but only by those few hard working outliers.
malmo wrote:
jonesy. wrote: Malmo, who did his morning recovery runs at an average of well under 6 minutes per mile (in other words, a tough guy whose easy runs were all well within a minute of his marathon pace), would still run 4 mile tempos at over 5 minute mile pace, if I remember correctly.Really? That's news to me. Perhaps there's a reason why I haven't hired you as my spokesperson.
I have no idea what kind of tempos you ran at other times. I can only go by what you posted on the old school oregon training thread. On this post below, you list something like 7 four mile tempo runs, all but one of which were over five minute mile pace (e.g. 21:37, 21:55, 21, 20:47). So, my random memory of one of your training months from a thread a while back was better than your memory of your own training?
"This log is from 1989 when I trained will Bill's kids. Take out the heavy mileage and you have another snapshot of the program.
Jan 7 100 miles
S rest
M PM 8 slow
T PM 13 easy
W AM 2.5 easy PM 13 easy
T AM Amazon 1.5 easy, 4 mile tempo (21:37), 5.5 easy
F AM 5 easy PM 10.5 easy
S AM 5 easy PM 10.5 easy
Jan 14 130 miles
S PM 12 easy
M AM 2.5 easy PM 14.5 easy
T AM 2.5 easy, 10x200 (32), 5 easy
W AM 6.5 easy PM 12.5 moderate
T AM Amazon 2.5 easy, 4 mile tempo (21:55), 5 easy PM 2.5 easy, 8 x 32/30, 4.5 easy
F AM 5 easy PM 13.5 moderate
S AM Amazon 2 easy, 6x800 in-out (2:27, 2:25, 2:24, 2:27, 2:24, 2:19), 2 easy
Jan 21 138 miles
S PM 20 slow
M AM 5 easy PM 13.5 moderate
T AM 2.5 easy, 9x300 cutdowns, 5 easy PM Amazon 2 easy, 5x 1000 (3:05-2:56) w/200 jog, 4.5 easy
W AM 5 easy PM 10 easy
T AM Amazon, 2 easy, 4 mile tempo (21:00), 5 easy PM 5 easy, 8 x 32/30, 5 easy
F AM 5 easy PM 13.5 moderate
S AM 11.5 moderate PM 12.5 moderate
Jan 28 137 miles
S PM 18 slow
M AM 5 moderate PM 13.5 moderate
T AM 5 moderate PM 13.5 fartlek (6x3:00 hard)
W AM 8 moderate PM 10.5 moderate
T AM Amazon 2 easy, 4 mile tempo (20:47), 4 easy
F AM 5 moderate PM 11 moderate
S AM 3 easy, 3x300 (46.5) w/100 jog, 11 moderate
Feb 4 135 miles 18”of snow and sub 20 temperatures from Feb 1 through Feb 12
S PM 20 moderate
M AM 5 moderate PM 11 moderate
T AM 2.5 easy, 4 x 400 (62), 5 easy PM 13.5 miles (6 x 3:00 hard)
W AM 5 easy PM 14 easy
T AM 9 easy PM 10 easy
F AM 9 easy PM 10 easy
S AM 9 easy PM 10 easy
Feb 11 138 miles
S PM 17.5 easy
M AM 9 moderate PM 11.5 moderate
T AM 6.5 moderate PM 13.5 moderate
W AM 5.5 moderate PM 13.5 easy
T AM 5 easy PM 13.5 moderate
F AM 5.5 easy PM 13.5 moderate
S AM 11 easy PM 14 moderate
Feb 18 150 miles (snow finally melts)
S PM 21.5 moderate
M AM 7 moderate PM 11 moderate
T AM 3 easy, 4 x 800/300 (2:30, 48, 2:25, 48, 2:16, 48, 2:11, 45) 3 easy
W AM 6.5 easy PM 6.5 easy
T AM Amazon 1.5 easy, 4 mile tempo (20:47) 4.5 easy PM 14 moderate
F AM 10 moderate PM 11 easy
S AM 3.5 easy, 1.5 miles 30/40, 5 easy, 5x300 cutdown PM 11 easy
Feb 25 143 miles
S PM 21 moderate
M AM 6 moderate PM 11 moderate
T AM 5.5 moderate PM 13.5 fartlek (3:00 hard/easy)
W AM 5.5 easy PM 12 moderate
T AM 9.5 moderate PM 13.5 easy
F AM 7.5 moderate PM 13.5 moderate
S AM 3 easy, 3 x 1 mile (4:40, 4:38, 4:36)w/ 800 jog, 5 easy, 5x300 cutdown (54,52,79,48,47), 2 easy PM 10 easy
March 4 155 miles
S AM 21 moderate
M AM 5 moderate PM 11 moderate
T AM Amazon 2 easy, 4 x1000 (3:11, 3:09, 2:56, 2:49), 6 easy PM 13 miles (6 x 3:00 hard/easy)
W AM 10 moderate PM 11 moderate
T AM Amazon 2 easy, 4 mile tempo (20:15), 4.5 easy PM 13.5 moderate
F AM 10 moderate PM 14.5 easy
S AM Amazon 2 easy, 5 x 800 (2:29, 2:25, 2:19, 2:15, 2:10) w/800 jog, 1.5 easy, 5 x 300 (55,52,50,48,45) 2.5 easy
March 11 167 miles
S PM 22.5 slow
M AM 10.5 moderate PM 14 easy
T AM Amazon 2.5 easy, 4 mile tempo (19:42), 5.5 easy PM 13 miles (6 x 3:00 hard easy)
W AM 9.5 easy PM 13.5 easy
T AM Amazon 2 easy, 4 mile tempo (20:36), 5.5 easy PM 3 easy, 8 x 30/30, 9.5 easy
F AM 10 easy PM 11 easy
S AM Amazon 2.5 easy, 5 x 1 mile (4:58,4:54,4:48,4:43,4:37) w200 rest, 5.5 easy PM 12 easy"
jonesy. wrote:
I have no idea what kind of tempos you ran at other times. I can only go by what you posted on the old school oregon training thread. On this post below, you list something like 7 four mile tempo runs, all but one of which were over five minute mile pace (e.g. 21:37, 21:55, 21, 20:47). So, my random memory of one of your training months from a thread a while back was better than your memory of your own training?
I have no idea what kind of tempos you ran at other times. No kidding?
Your "random" memory is good, but you don't have a clue what you were remembering. You know what they say when you assume, don't you?
That log was from 1989, and I was coming back from a 3 year layoff after missing the training and camaraderie. I couldn't have run a 2:30 marathon then if my life depended on it. Those tempo runs (on a wood chip trail) were appropriate to my fitness level at that time. In fact, I remember that first one (21:37) being at race intensity. I called that one "my Olympics". It was funny. After that Pete Fonceca saw Brad Hudson talking to me. Brad told me that Pete asked who the "slow dude" was that he was talking to. Brad said he informed Pete that the "slow dude" will be running with the lead group within a few months. Pete's response was something like "you're f***ing crazy!"