Tergat on why non-Africans lose

dsad wrote:

its partly true, but the africans dont even uderstand the physiology behind it.

we understand it, but we sit on our fat butts during our youth while they are being very active.

i mean haile thinks God is involved in his running, those are his feelings, but I think that if a God exists, I personally feel like God wouldn't be concerned about running.

Actually something that I've found to be a major problem, especially in the D1 college realms, is that talented runners don't care to know the "Why?" of each days workout. They are only interested in the "What?" and therefore focus too much on the numbers and tend to workout too hard. This is why talented runners don't always make great coaches.

Go read a few interviews of the olympic champ Sammy W. It it really surprising to see how much he knows about the sport. The running knowlege he has is a huge advantage over those who are just as talented as him.

right... wrote:

Actually, it's a weird trend.

At 800/1500 non africans have been very competitive. As the distance increases to 5k/10k, non africans are basically non-competitive. Even our best, like Mottram a couple years back, were not near the best.

But as you get up to the Marathon, non africans are still not that competitive, but it's closer. About equal percentage wise to the 1500.

Good point...I think this is because what seperates the east africans from us is their threshold/aerobic power systems, which are most important from 5000-halfmarathon. With the marathon training matters more and so the europeans/americans have a chance to finish within half a mile.

Question to anybody who has said on this thread that the Kenyans train harder then Americans.

Have you ever actually trained with the Kenyans first hand? I am currently a runner on a team in which most of our top runners are Kenyan and they do not train harder then the other Americans on the team. In my experience they often train less and complain about the workouts much more then the Americans.

Yes but again, these Kenyans are more talented than the americans on your team. This does not mean that All kenyans are more talented than all Americans. It simply means that kenyans with your level of talent are simply not recruited to joint American teams. They are back in kenya or are pursuing academics elsewhere.

The answer to why: The same reason canadians are so good at hockey; same reason gay men are disproportionately represented in figure skating and dance (both of which require extreme athleticism); same reason that Jamaica is great at the sprints (and for those of you bringing up the west africa connection-which is also flawed because most black americans have quite a bit of "white" ancestry)Jamaica alone outperforms all of west africa on the international sprint scene.

Oh btw, if anyone says its because slave owners took the biggest and strongest to Jamaica i'm going to throw a history book at you.

My point isn't that the Kenyans are more talented its that the Americans work harder. I've trained with a few African born runners while back home as well, none of them make you turn your head because they work especially hard.

That's true, but again...it doesn't speak for the work ethic of all Kenyans. My point is simply that the kenyans who are similarly talented to you don't aren't here.

Remember, these guys (most of them) are only here to get an education. Running is a means to an end (literally feeding their entire family). Running for us is very different (the almost spiritual pursuit of becoming faster). I'm not saying one is better than the other, but that it may not be laziness, just a different focus.

"Remember, these guys (most of them) are only here to get an education. Running is a means to an end (literally feeding their entire family). Running for us is very different (the almost spiritual pursuit of becoming faster). I'm not saying one is better than the other, but that it may not be laziness, just a different focus."

Whatever the reason may be for them not training "hard" my point is that I would be willing to bet that the top Americans train just as hard (if not harder) then the top Kenyans.

I have never met a person who has trained with Kenyans who was specifically suprised because they trained so hard.

I'll differ on this because I don't know too many people who have trained with the best Kenyans.

One of my law school professors always advised us to "never look like you're working as hard as you really are." Specifically, he said he would stay as late as the other summer associates, but would go home and work all night on projects. To them, it seemed like he was so much more productive than they were. He thought this gave him a mental advantage.

Right...so its just a big conspiracy. When the "white man" is watching during practice hours hold back but when it's dark out and nobody is watching thats when the real training starts.

read "Train Hard, Win Easy" By Toby Tanser. It has training profiles of all the top kenyan runners. They don't do anything special.

I started running in high school in NYC at age 14. Prior to that, I had done nothing but sit around and watch TV. I took up road running at age 17 and was pretty decent. However I noticed that any European who immigrated here would blow the doors off most Americans. (Kenyans were not a force in those days). The Euros had been running, mostly barefooted, since birth whereas I started at 14. They had 14 more years running experience under their belts by the time I started. Thats too great an advantage to overcome. Unless, we can get kids off thier duffs early we cant reasonably expect them to be competitive later on. Its just basic physiology. "The horse has left the barn" by the time Americans get to high school and will remain gone forever.

a white kenyan wrote:

Question to anybody who has said on this thread that the Kenyans train harder then Americans.

Have you ever actually trained with the Kenyans first hand? I am currently a runner on a team in which most of our top runners are Kenyan and they do not train harder then the other Americans on the team. In my experience they often train less and complain about the workouts much more then the Americans.

well your kenyans and your team must suck.

i know the training habits of several top-flight collegiate kenyans, and i don't think anybody would ever dare to kid themselves and say that they train harder than them. i think tergats feeling that kenyans are only better b/c they have the mental fortitude is misguided in many ways, but if anybody is honestly going to try and convince themselves that kenayans do not actually train harder and want it more, and are just THAT much more gifted, then you are delusional.

I agree. American swimmers are training 12 or more hours a week before they reach teenage years. Then maybe 20 or more hours a week in mid and later teens. The foundation for our success at international elite level. How much running are American kids doing before they get to HS? Geb was running 10 miles to school, one way.

roundot wrote:

I agree. American swimmers are training 12 or more hours a week before they reach teenage years. Then maybe 20 or more hours a week in mid and later teens. The foundation for our success at international elite level. How much running are American kids doing before they get to HS? Geb was running 10 miles to school, one way.

Bingo. Take a thousand American kids, and show me one who is doing anything akin to what most Kenyan kids are doing.

This thread is full of non-believers and that in itself is the biggest obstacle.

On a completely unrelated plain, hi Sir Lancelot. Whassuuuup? I always know how to find you!!! :)

In a world of cars, computer games and McDonalds, how can you win?

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

If you can't see how far head talent-wise a Usain Bolt is or a K. Bekele is compared to sprinters or distance runners of european heritage than you are blind.

What no one seems to ever point out is that the Ethiopians and Eritreans are racially different from Kenyans. Yes they are all Africans and their countries are adjacent, but physically they are very distinct.

The question then becomes, if the advantage is in fact physical, are there advantages shared between the two races and not with Western Europeans (ignoring Coe, Ovett, Cram, and others), or are these advantages environmental, such as being born and living at altitude, eating a better diet, being more active at a young age, etc?

Personally, given Ryan Hall's background growing up at altitude and focusing early on his 1500 speed (to moderate success, admittedly), I would argue more for the nature side, especially when you include the enclaves the Africans tend to train in. And for the extra motivation of bringing yourself out of abject poverty through running.

First and second generation African-Americans are the highest educated group in the United States. The ones that make it out of Africa are some of the most driven people in the world. They have great perspective and take nothing for granted.

Africa as a continent has suffered from outside intervention for the last 400 years which has had a profound negative effect on it's culture.

COACH D

PLEASE GET OFF THIS SUBJECT ... YOU'RE CLUELESS!

For every Webb, Fernandez we have ... they have hundreds of talented individuals who can run just as fast if not faster if given the chance. Five of the Kenyan kids who beat Fernandez at world cross had no personal bests because they never raced on a track at sea level.

Webb gets world class coaching and the support of Nike. Some of these kids will be lucky if they even get the attention of a manager before they get overtaken by their own country men and dissapear in obscurity.

malmo wrote:

If proof of lack of attitude by American kids is needed, all you have to do is read this message board. On any given day, the board will be flooded with training threads that are saturated with the whiny "I can't" attitude.

I agree. This thread is 3 pages of excuses.