there should be a journalist on this list. Print journalists, even though they are a dying breed serve an important function in society.
there should be a journalist on this list. Print journalists, even though they are a dying breed serve an important function in society.
Obviously my answer is going to be a bit biased due to my poster name, but for those who are bashing the military and putting it dead last should re-consider.
The Harris Poll has done a yearly poll asking americans what they think is the most trusted organization in the entire world; and the answer that has been #1 more than any other profession is the United States Air Force. Although its not the all inclusive "Military", we're not just a bunch of "chumps" as you put it.
I'm an officer, and work with some VERY talented soldiers. I have a Harvard MBA grad in my office and in my last assignment I had a Rhodes Scholar that joined the Air Force. You have to remember that every single officer in the Air Force is a college grad, and 99% of people that are captain and above (which is nearly all the officers that stay in for four years or more) have obtained a masters degree. I would argue that a Harvard MBA grad and a Rhodes scholar joined the military for reasons other than, "having no direction in their lives" as you put it.
We're the reason that you have the freedom of speech to sit here and argue this very topic, just remember that.
a list i created wrote:
"Prestige" in the eyes of Americans depends mostly on salary.
As far as "importance", which I'd base on "contributions to society", here is my list:
1. Engineer - Almost everything you use in your day-to-day life was engineered. You car, you computer, your shoes, your vitamin pills, you cell phone, your notepad, the roads you drive to work, etc etc etc. Without engineers, modern society would not exist. Engineers are usually very smart and contribute in other ways as well.
2. Doctor - Your go to "guy" (or "girl") for health problems. They solve these problems and have a huge impact on "quality of life".
3. Teacher - They educate and inspire future doctors and engineers. A noble cause. An educated populace is important.
4. Police - Without them, all chaos would break lose. Some hate on the police, but I am glad they are around to incarcerate the scum of the Earth. I would argue the average policeman has a more dangerous/risky job than the average military person.
5. Military - Similar to the police, they keep all hell from breaking lose. But they don't have to do much in peacetime. For police there is no such thing as "peacetime". That is why I rate police a nod higher.
6. Business Owner - These guys are enablers of innovation. They employ people and provide for their food, housing, health insure, etc. But they can often be greedy and irresponsible (case in point: financial crisis).
7. Banker - Moves capital/manages money for engineers, doctors, lawyers, teachers, police departments, business owners. In that sense they are useful. But they are greedy bastards (case in point: financial crisis).
8. Lawyer - Most lawyers are in it for the money, pure and simple. Only a select few fight on behalf of noble causes. Most are leeches.
9. Salesman - In it for the money. If they are selling a good product that they believe in I guess that could be good.
10. Marketing - In it for the money. Tries to get people to buy crap they don't need, is bad for their health, bad for communities, etc. All in the name of making money!
+1
[quote]a list i created wrote:
"Prestige" in the eyes of Americans depends mostly on salary.
As far as "importance", which I'd base on "contributions to society", here is my list:
1. Engineer - Almost everything you use in your day-to-day life was engineered. You car, you computer, your shoes, your vitamin pills, you cell phone, your notepad, the roads you drive to work, etc etc etc. Without engineers, modern society would not exist. Engineers are usually very smart and contribute in other ways as well.
--------
This is an odd list. You rank attorneys and salespeople low because they are "greedy." Have you heard of patents? They exist solely to allow engineers to capture all the profits from inventions. I have nothing against patents, but to criticize other professions for greed and fail to acknowledge that engineers have created a system to monopolize profits is just odd.
Salespeople are important because many engineers lack the social skills/personality to actually sell their products. Lawyers are important (in this regard) to protect the intellectual property rights of the inventors and give them incentive to keep working hard to innovate. So, they're all greedy, but they're all 'important.'
USAF_run wrote:
Obviously my answer is going to be a bit biased due to my poster name, but for those who are bashing the military and putting it dead last should re-consider.
The Harris Poll has done a yearly poll asking americans what they think is the most trusted organization in the entire world; and the answer that has been #1 more than any other profession is the United States Air Force. Although its not the all inclusive "Military", we're not just a bunch of "chumps" as you put it.
I'm an officer, and work with some VERY talented soldiers. I have a Harvard MBA grad in my office and in my last assignment I had a Rhodes Scholar that joined the Air Force. You have to remember that every single officer in the Air Force is a college grad, and 99% of people that are captain and above (which is nearly all the officers that stay in for four years or more) have obtained a masters degree. I would argue that a Harvard MBA grad and a Rhodes scholar joined the military for reasons other than, "having no direction in their lives" as you put it.
We're the reason that you have the freedom of speech to sit here and argue this very topic, just remember that.
Point considered. But the fact is that 'the Military' is just too broad. Sure there are tons of really smart people in the military, but there are also a lot of people who just decided to go in because they didn't have any money and weren't sure what to do after high school and weren't smart enough for college and then were roped in by some line by an army recruiter. I think if you look at all these professions, I'd say that the top 1% in general are pretty respectable, but we're not comparing the top 1%, we're comparing the group as a whole, and there are a whole lot of military men, many of whom are not very bright.
All lawyers and Doctors have post-graduate education. All bankers and engineers have a college degree (unless you argue that a bank teller is a 'banker') and a good portion of those have post-graduate education.
I'd say a good measure of 'prestige' is how exclusive the profession is. If the average smart person with a college degree went to interview for a doctor or law school job, he'd be turned down, because he had no education, and because they have too many applicants. The same would probably apply for other jobs, including policeman. But for the military, unless you were arrested or are physically unable to do anything, you can get in. You can't get into the air force or the navy, but you can get into whatever the lowest rank is.
So you went to a fancy college. Whoop dee doo. Americans are over degreed (too many idiots have degrees). It's not necessary for law and medical degrees (and pharmacy and dental) to be post-graduate degrees. It didn't use to be this way and it still isn't this way in many other countries. An accountant at a Big 4 company with a master's degree in accounting is doing work any decently smart high schooler could do. The same goes with those fancy banking jobs.
manhattan wrote:
I'll agree with you for the most part about engineers. But every engineer I've ever met can do only that. They are not "very smart" in any fields other than math and science. But they really do think that makes them an expert at everything!
What else is there to be "smart in" besides math and science? Sorry to break it to you, but most of the world doesn't care what your verbal score was on the SAT.
1. Corporate Executive
2. Network Administrator
3. Engineer
4. Business Owner
5. Military
6. Advertizing Executive
7. Finance Manager
8. Government Official
9. Doctor
10.Banker
11.Teacher
12.Lawyer
13.Police Officer
14.Salesman
Strange Call... wrote:
This is an odd list. You rank attorneys and salespeople low because they are "greedy." Have you heard of patents? They exist solely to allow engineers to capture all the profits from inventions. I have nothing against patents, but to criticize other professions for greed and fail to acknowledge that engineers have created a system to monopolize profits is just odd.
It's completely untrue that the patent system exists solely to allow "engineers" to capture all the profits from inventions.
Firstly, any patent created by an engineer while working for a company is owned by that company. The business managers push engineers to write up patent applications, so that the company has intellectual property assets for go after other companies or to countersue if someone comes after them. The employees named on the patent get some nominal cash award and a nice plaque to hang in their cubicle.
Secondly, many of the most egregious patents (and patent filings) don't even involve engineering. "Business method" patents are the worst. For example in Re: Ferguson, an attorney attempted to patent a method for marketing software. (ref:
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090307055042604). That covers two of our professions right there: lawyers and merketers.
In fact, the Groklaw article I referenced points to a number of articles that describe a recent trend of patent attorneys trying to get in on the act by filing patents for themselves (for example:
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202424282231)
manhattan wrote:
I'll agree with you for the most part about engineers. But every engineer I've ever met can do only that. They are not "very smart" in any fields other than math and science. But they really do think that makes them an expert at everything!
I went to one of the best engineering schools in the country. (I am not an engineer, however.) I tutored some of those engineers at writing and I edited the paper, to which some tried to contribute. I NEVER met an engineer who could write for beans.
They are generally uncultured. But they make nice bridges. Oh well.
you have not met many engineers then. My verbal score on the GRE was in the 95 percentile. My reading/verbal stuff on the ACT was higher than my math or science.
your generalization is ridiculous. Engineers become executives in almost all tech companies. You can't run a company without verbal skills.
http://engineering.curiouscatblog.net/2007/06/05/sp-500-ceos-again-engineering-graduates-lead/This "engineers can't communicate" (or doctors or scientists or whatever) statement is only made by people who are not smart enough to do something real. I didn't need to pay $40k per year for four years to read books and write papers.
manhattan wrote:
I'll agree with you for the most part about engineers. But every engineer I've ever met can do only that. They are not "very smart" in any fields other than math and science. But they really do think that makes them an expert at everything!
I went to one of the best engineering schools in the country. (I am not an engineer, however.) I tutored some of those engineers at writing and I edited the paper, to which some tried to contribute. I NEVER met an engineer who could write for beans.
They are generally uncultured. But they make nice bridges. Oh well.
It's funny how a know-it-all letsrun poster generalizes his limited experience to criticize engineers for thinking they're expert at everything. Nice.
Also, take a moment to think about why you shouldn't base your generalization on engineers' writing ability on those who sought your help in writing.
You people are hilarious. Let's be realistic here. This largely has to do with salary and should be broken down like this.
1. Business Owner (Assuming the business generates enough revenue that the term CEO does not sound strange. Let's say 5 mil.)
2. Doctor (In a certain ethnic groups Doctor takes the cake no matter what)
3. Banker (Probably would have been switched with doctor back in November 2007. This only refers to Goldman, JP and some smaller firms dealing with high net wealth individuals)
4. Lawyer
5. Engineers (This group seems to have an inflated ego. This is probably because they do not get enough recognition or make enough money. Run of the mill engineers are not even on this list)
6. Teacher (If a professor at a top university or liberal arts college move above doctor. Note: these people often have connections with other industries)
7. Military (Unless you are a general the public really doesn't care unfortunately. They respect what you do but certainly don't attach a high level of prestige to your position. If a general move up to number 1)
Wild Card: Government Service...
Here is a different list, but far more prestigious:
1.Venture Capitalist
2.Private Equity Manager
3.Corporate Executive (C Suite)
4.Pro Athlete
5.Hedge Fund
6.Investment Banker
7.MD, but probably surgeon, not an eye doctor, dentist, etc.
8.Consultant (ie McKinsey, Bain, Booz, etc)
9.Attorney
10.Entrepreneur
All the other crab, teacher, cop, gov't work, etc is just setting yourself up to be stuck in shittown, usa with an accord and a frumpy wife. Engineer's also top out relatively early, unless you have executive presence and can move out of a line role into management in your early 30's a la Jack Welch. Otherwise, you will be 45, have a graying beard, think you are green, and also think dockers at work are "dressing up."
elite piece o paper wrote:
So you went to a fancy college. Whoop dee doo. Americans are over degreed (too many idiots have degrees). It's not necessary for law and medical degrees (and pharmacy and dental) to be post-graduate degrees. It didn't use to be this way and it still isn't this way in many other countries. An accountant at a Big 4 company with a master's degree in accounting is doing work any decently smart high schooler could do. The same goes with those fancy banking jobs.
I'm not saying it's right, but barriers to entry is a good way to measure 'prestige'. The most prestigious country clubs, night clubs, and restaurants, are generally the hardest ones to get into. And yes, I agree with your assessment that most finance and accounting jobs could be done by a smart high schooler or maybe one with 1 year of college concentrated in his field.
I also agree that Americans are over degreed, which is why I'm not sure why Obama is pushing to get more student loans for all people. Then we'll just have a bunch of people who spent money on education without jobs to go to.
The biases in this list make it simply unusable. You honestly distinguished Hedge Fund Manager and Investment Banker yet did not bother to sub-categorize the fields of law, medicine, athletics etc.? Are you insane? Are so into what you do for a living that you don't have any perspective on how the rest of the world sees you?
You really need to talk to some people outside of the financial world. There list will look VERY different. I do agree with your point about engineers however.
I agree. The Real Lest guy can't even frickin spell, probably boozed his way through college at Daddy's expense, and now thinks he's a success because he managed to stuff his pockets with enough money to buy what? A trophy wife?
These sleazy finance idiots are the bottom of the barrel and are apparently snortin' too much of something to see themselves for what they really are. Douschebags in suits. There is absolutely no "prestige" in banking.
The Real Lest wrote:
Engineer's also top out relatively early...
...and have no ability to properly use the apostrophe.
As a journalist, I agree with the importance... However, the prestige factor is not so great, especially in the US. We're constantly ranked near the top of the most hated professions.
It's very difficult to be a good, trusted journalist, and the temptations to be biased and petty are enormous. The good ones are rarely recognized, and the unethical ones make a lot of money.
Ah, well. I enjoy what I do, and I would say I'm an ethical journalist (proven by the size of my paycheck).
Obamaville, I like your list.I would just kill 'Network Administrator'.
Obamaville wrote:
1. Corporate Executive
2. Network Administrator
3. Engineer
4. Business Owner
5. Military
6. Advertizing Executive
7. Finance Manager
8. Government Official
9. Doctor
10.Banker
11.Teacher
12.Lawyer
13.Police Officer
14.Salesman
There should be some distinction made between military officers and military enlistmen. They are VERY different.