Tinman, HADD, JK, JTupperD, anybody with information about Tim Noakes?

LaWoof:

You ask an interesting question. The workout you describe might be of help. The only thing is I really think it will make you sore. If you have ever ran awhile at a solid pace, stopped for a good while, and then tried to do the same thing, your legs and lower back will tend to get quite stiff. I coached a runner who would participate in a tennis class (he was a p.e. major) at about 2 in the afternoon. He would finish around 2:50 pm. We met for practice at 3:30 pm and we are on the road about 15 minutes later. He was getting shin splints and had tight hamstrings. I asked him what was going on. He said that his whole body was stiff from tennis the previous hour. I am wondering if that would happen to you if you tried the 4 x 10km runs at marathon goal pace with 30-60 minutes of rest, as you say.

I really think that the key to training for the marathon is teaching your body to endure the seemingly endless pounding of the miles and to burn fuel efficiently. One final element of marathoning that I think about a lot is elastic recoil. I noticed when I ran marathons that my legs simply could not rebound well after about 16 miles. I wasn't tired and depleted, but my strides were shorter. I think that teaching your legs to keep on springing, so to speak, is a desirable training goal. Hill reps (both uphill and downhill) aid leg power in the later stages of marathoning, I think. The downhill running done before the last 4 weeks prior to the race are crucial because your muscles get better at not losing their eccentric strength.

It is my opinion that there are only a handful of key workouts that will help one become a solid marathoner, besides modertely high mileage held for many weeks. First, the generalized long run. Second, the long run with fast aerobic running during, especially after 30 or more minutes of running (better marathoners can run 60-80 minutes before doing faster running). Third, hill running at least every 10 days. You can run your LT, half-marathon, or marathon reps over a hilly course and derive enormous elastic recoil benefit in addition to increased stamina. Fourth, 5k reps for aerobic power, done more often in the phases prior to the last 6 weeks, and as maintenance every other week during the last 6-week phase. Fifth, long fartlek runs in which you rotate 1.5 miles at a pace 1 minute over marathon race pace with 1/2 mile at 10k pace. The cycle repeats every two miles until you are ready for a cooldown jog. If you can do 20 miles of this workout, your strength is high enough to really benefit from the stamina workouts: long runs with LT, half marathon pace, and marathon pace over hills.

LaWoof, I think that's a great idea for a workout. My opinion is that the most difficult aspect of it would be taking in proper nutrition during the workout such that you could recover fast enough in the days after to keep getting stronger, otherwise this 4-6+ hour effort will be too damaging. If I were in shape to do a workout like that I'd recommend going about it something like this...

Find a trail loop that is the approximate distance you want, say in between 8k and 12k.

Do the loop once as a warm up, then drink as much of a sports drink as you can handle (6-8oz.?) and have a bite of food and hit that first loop at MP. Take the loop again, walking the first half and eating/drinking like a bird the whole time, chew well. Jog the second half and when you come around to the start again hit it at MP again. Repeat until you are done, which might mean you put in 50K that day or maybe 100K if you have Lindgren's spirit with you.

Tinman mentioned that the bodies adaptation to a specific training becomes static around the 4wk point, though I believe a lunar cycle is more precise. So, your training could be such that you did a workout like this every full moon, or every new moon, and that would be the big workout of that mini-cycle. You've mentioned you think runners could possibly get in more miles, akin to time spent in the saddle for bikers, and I definitely agree. The hard part is to break that mental block of 2+hours being a "long run", but if you're used to being on a bike for a solid 5+hour effort you may have broken that block already. The next hardest part will obviously be recovery, nutrition has got to be spot on with doing workouts of that magnitude. If you are in shape to try it, and are a smooth runner, I hope you'll give it a go.

"I think one of the best things you can do as a runner is work on your sprint speed so that you can coast along at a lower percentage of your maximum during longer races. Bascially, if you went from being a 25 second 200m runner to a 23 seconds 200m runner it like going from a Buick to a Firebird; you have got more horsepower. Now, once you have more horsepower, you gotta tweek the carburetor so that you don't burn more fuel than necessary over the long haul."

Tinman,

Thanks for all of your contributions on this thread.

The point you make about it being important for distance runners to work on their all out sprint speed is something that I agree with. However, in terms of practicality, I, like many others perhaps, see it as something that could be difficult to carry out in conjunction with distance training.

The traditional idea of doing strides or sprints after a run or workout may not be very effective because you do mention the importance of the training of the "motor neural units" in repetition type training and these must not be "tired" in order for them to be effectively trained.

In addition I have heard many coaches and physiologists state that endurance type training has a negative effect on the basic all out sprint speed of an athlete. I'm not sure if this is true but if so I can hear many coaches saying that it would therefore be a good idea do devote a few months of the year training like a sprinter and then moving onto endurance work. To many people I guess, this does not seem a good method.

So what do you think is the best way for a distance runner to improve basic sprinting speed, if this is possible ? (Obviously El G, Coe, etc are very lucky with having good basic speed)

I am left with thinking that some good ideas might be:

1. Do fast 50m sprints etc, before a workout or steady run starts - but this may take too much out yourself ?

2. Do the sprints after a very easy run only ?

3. Do the sprints at the start of an easy run ?

I don't know if these would be effective, the idea of working a lot with weights, plyos etc as well to me seems to make things far too complicated and tiring if you are already covering a good amount of mileage including all of the endurance developing workouts you have mentioned.

Thanks if you have time to answer this.

JTupper, maybe you have some insight on this as well given your experience.

Tinman,

Don't know if this helps or not or even if it's welcome, but this is the rough outline we follow here for marathon training. It's general in nature, meaning a young marathoner isn't doing it all in year 1 of the progression, but someone in year 4 probably is close. Also, if the athlete recovers quickly which seems to be the case with the female athlete who is all of 5'2" tall and 100 lbs vs a guy 6' and 155, the little people from Oz can get more work into a standard week whereas the heavier person generally needs more recovery. The following is roughly what Gaitenby and Somers used heading into the Worlds, what Derego used to run 2:45 last weekend in her debut, what Spangenberg used to get second at Tucson last weekend in 2:28 at 39 years of age, weighing in at 160 lbs and he ran it in 80 degree weather. Brian works 40+ hours a week and averaged 115-120 or so, Linda works the same amount and get's in 100-110 a week. Jill runs about 130, Jen around 100 being a first timer. Not everyone did exactly this, but fairly close to what they all did.

Sun: Long run every other week, harder long run every other to every 3-4th week.

Mon: AM. 30-60 min PM. run of 50-70

Tues: AM: 30-60 min. PM: Harder workout

Wed: AM: Progressive run PM: 30-50 min optional if advanced

Thur: Recovery run or 2 easy runs

Fri: Same as Tuesday

Sat: Same as Monday if developed, same as Thursday if younger.

Sunday. Alternate efforts every other (advanced) to every 3rd-4th week if a rookie. Can substitue a 15-30k race effort. If half or 15k, substantial warmup and/or cooldown is recommended (ie 3 mile up, 13.1 race, 6 mile down):

Month #1: Easy 1:45-2 or 5 easy, 5 at MP, 5 easy, 5 at MP

Month #2: 2-2:15 or 10 easy, 10 at MP

Month #3: 2:15-30 easy or 5 easy, 15 at MP, 2 mile cooldown. Gaintenby and Somers will do this in the following 5 miles splits when fit. 35, 31, 30, 29. Derego ran races instead, a half marathon 2 months out and a 30k at MP pace 4 weeks out.

Tues or Fri workout: Ideal if there can be a longer warmup and cooldown of 25-30 min on in/outs and 10k paced reps to add volume. Also, a second run for the day of 30, 40, working up to 45-50 minutes by month #3 on these days is good to make the total volume of the day add up to 20-24. We want marathon specific fitness of 20-24 miles 3-5 days per week which 15 miles a day doesn't get. Just gotta get used to being on your feet a good 2-3 hours consistently. We just rotate through the following 3 workouts:

Workout #1: in/out 400's. 400 at 5k/400 at MP. Month #1, probably 3 x 2 miles w/ easy 400-800 jog btw each, month #2 2 x 3 miles worth, month #3 6 miles straight up. Derego did 4 miles worth this fall. Somers did 6 miles worth, Jill did 60 seconds on/off x 16-22.

Workout #2: 10k pace reps. 8-12 x 1k or 5-7 x 1600 at 10k pace with 400 jog. Maybe start with 4-5 miles in in month #1, 5-6 miles worth in Month #2, and 6-7 in month #3. Derego was at 5 miles worth, Jill and Linda about 6-7, Brian 6.

Workout #3: MP runs. Reps at Marathon pace w/ 800 jog. Month #1: 6 x 2 miles or maybe 8 x 2k if fat ass. Month #2: 4 x 5k. Month #3: 3 x 4 miles. If under-developed athlete, consider 2/3's the volume of reps. Also can go 40 min easy, 4 miles at MP, 5 min, 4 miles at tempo.

Final workouts to consider before taper. Replace with MP runs above: 4 miles at MP, 3 at tempo, 2 at 10k, 1 at 5k, 800 at 3k all with 800 jog. Also, can go 20 min at MP/tempo, 60 sec surge, 10 min at MP/tempo, 60 sec surge, 8 min at MP/tempo, 60 sec surge, 6 min at MP/tempo, 60 sec surge, 4 min at MP/tempo, 60 sec surge, 2 min at MP/tempo, 60 sec surge. Second option works well run within a low key 10k race.

Weekly mid week progressive runs: 14-16 with each 5k faster than the previous in hills.

Month #1: Working down to the last 5k at slightly slower than MP.

Month #2: 5k at slightly slower than MP, then last 5k at MP

Month #3: 5k at slightly slower than MP, then 5k at MP, then last 5k at tempo

Good if you can go 3-4 weeks at the above program, then take a lighter down (recovery) week and run a race at the end to see where the athlete is at. So 3 weeks at the above levels, 1 week easier, a race to determine fitness, then back on it the next month at a slightly higher level.

Joe

a little known fact about Coe is that he actually didn't have that good a 400m time as youngster. I'll try to find the page (I think its in Winning Runnng) Where he says that when he went to Loughborough to work on his 400m time, it was only a 49.9. Three years later, he had worked it down to 46.5. So, although he was fast, he did not Joaquim Cruz-like speed at such a young age. Also, bear in mind that he hadn't skimped on speed training before going to Loughborough, so that 400m time improvement can give hope to us all.

Anything is worth the try. I once had a guy do 4X1hour with 15 minutes rest and that went OK (wasn't at MP however, alittle slower). I think you'd be better off with a longer steady effort, with pace variations. I've had good luck with 2 miles easy, then immediately into 8 miles at MP immediately followed by 1 mile at threshold pace then another 6 miles at MP and another mile at T pace and a little more at MP. The runners who do this find it easier to pick it up from MP to T pace than it is to go back to MP from T pace. Still a great ego boost to make it. I think it would interesting to see how you did with 4X10k at MP

Joe:

Good info.! It seems that we advise marathoners in a very similar way. I like one workout you listed, especially, that I have not thought of before: the alternation of MP running segments with 60 second surges. Good one!

The keys, as I see it to marathoning are fairly straightforward. Your plan hits them head on.

1)Long runs and long hard/progressive runs;

2)Faster reps at close to 5k pace farther out from the race (in addtion to the long runs) for aerobic capacity development plus strength which can allow one to do the MP type workouts with ease.

3)More and more MP miles/ LT as part of the weekly or bi-weekly schema as the marathon approaches, thereby creating simulation and specificity

4)Higher mileage

5)Consistency

Good job! tinman

Many people don't give proper recognition to Coach George Gandy at Loughborough University for developing Seb's explosive power. Gandy was a master at designing circuits and sprint workouts that were useful middle distance runners. If there are some Brits on here who have more info. on Coach Gandy's training schemas, please post them for others to read. Thank you.

Joe Rub, JTD, tinman, Jk, where does the HADD stuff that lit fire to this board awhile ago fit into your training philosophy?

Where is Hadd?

$$$***

WeJo/RoJo take note of the true interest here on your board for real training information. We could have two boards where this topic nature would be treated right. The other original message board would be the animal in all of us,ha!!!

I am writing a book in my spare time for another notable coach. It has a chapter on circuit training. The coach uses circuit work and strength work nearly year round. I included Gandy's work since it is very similar in spirit. Gandy has continued to refine his use of circuits and weights since the late 70's. The latest incarnation of Gandy's circuits are documented in the Faster Higher Stronger magazine.

Gandy has frequently used the following statements to describe the need for circuit and strength work.

?For the vast majority to achieve full potential, carefully programmed work is necessary to develop strength for force in the propulsive muscles and for tolerance of stresses by equally attuned non-propulsive elements, particularly the core stabilizing muscles of the abdomen and trunk. Sufficient freedom of joint movements must also be ensured to best apply these forces, and enough specific endurance to allow the process to be repeated as often and as quickly as required.?

The Loughborough Circuit of the late 1970?s

1) One warm-up loop was made on the circuit with 10 repetitions at each station, and only one rope climb.

2) Fifteen minutes of supervised stretching.

3) Two loops of the circuit were undertaken with 30 seconds spent at each station, 15 seconds were allotted for movement between stations, with an additional 10 minute recovery before susequent loops.

Circuit Stations

1) Rope Climb.

2) Reverse Splits

3) Balance Beam Rebound Jumps.

4) Back Extensions.

5) Continuous One Legged Step-ups.

6) Parallel Bar Dips.

7) Depth Jumps from vaulting boxes.

8) Push Ups with elevated feet.

9) Low Thrusts (Sprint Starts).

10) Leg Raises while hanging from wall bars.

11) Bent Knee Sit-Ups.

12) Bounding.

13) Burpees.

Since its inception in 1974, over 64 of Gandy?s circuit trained athletes have risen to the senior international level. Seb Coe, Graham Williamson, Chris McGeorge, Jon Brown, Spencer Barden, Michelle Scutt, Gary Lough, Tim Hutchings, Christine Boxer, Jack Buckner, Kristy Wade, Ricky Soos, Lisa Dobriskey, and Wendy Sly are all notable runners that made use of this circuit or its descendants at some point in their career.

I read of Coe's use of the Gandy circuit in Coe's orginal book back in the 80s. It included the circuit you listed. I am wondering if their are changes and improvements by Mr. Gandy. Indeed, I think many top athletes owe credit to George. His concepts put to use made it possible for athletes like Coe, Sly, Williamson, Hutchings, Brown, etc. to adapt to the very high volume of high intensity specialized training they did. Back to basics, really, can make a difference each year in how much progress is made from running workouts. The depth jumps alone and hill reps that he advises make running power possible.

Hadd, it appears to me, is a follower of the late great Dr. Ernest Van Aaken who instructed lots and lots of miles of slow running over for a few years as a builder of high aerobic endurance. Personally, I don't agree with all of his ideas, but I am sure he doesn't agree with my approach of tempo work all year round and 4-6 week cycles rotating through the key primary performance elements. I even recommend some anaerobic capacity training during transition training. The similarities are that we both believe the aerobic mileage are part of the big picture. We disagree about faster training; I am more aggressive than he is. We agree that without a high threshold it is nearly impossible to reach one's potential. We agree that slow running is valuable, I just think it is not something to do for more than about 30-40% of the total training. I would push a person more in the aerobic miles, I think.

LaWoof...

"What doesn't kill us makes us stronger" --Neitzsche.

That was my first reaction to your idea of 4 x10k. The science guys might find your idea an "interesting" concept and "theoretically" helpful...but think before you leap.

What are you trying to accomplish by doing this workout?

1. Practice the marathon pace?

2. Prove to yourself (mentally) that you can handle the effort?

2. Build endurance or physiological beneits related to marathoning?

You might accomplish #1 and #2 with this workout, but I doubt this is effective means of accomplishing #3---and #1 and #2 will come at a pretty high cost for the benefit achieved. I would think both physically and mentally this workout would take a toll that would last for several days and effect the rest of your marathon preparation.

Have tinman or jtupper ever advocated to their athletes training for the marathon..."Go out and run 10k at marathon pace" as an effective training component...I doubt it...so why do it 4x with an extended rest? I'm not a scientist, but I doubt the time running at marathon pace is long enough within each segment to achieve desired physiological benefits...IF THIS IS THE GOAL...will the body learn to store and burn fuel more efficiently with this effort? I don't think there is much to be gained by such a taxing effort versus a single longer run at MP.

Now, if the goal is more along the lines of mind over matter and becoming comfortable with the extended effort of the marathon and proving that you can handle it...then refer to the quote above.

I simply think that key workouts for marathon training should simulate the nature of the marathon; long and continous, moderately fast, and depleting of fuel and elastic recoil. Resting 30-60 minutes between 10k efforts doesn't fit into my conception of training oneself to endure the miles upon miles that marathoning requires. I don't recall timeout stations along marathon courses.

Exactly...so why encourage such an effort by saying it might be helpful when you really believe the goals can and should be achieved in other more effective ways...now, as a scientist (that is you, not me)--you are always looking for experimental ideas...LaWoof could be your guinea pig. But you really don't believe his idea is sound and both you and jtupper seemed a little hesitant to come out and say it---you offered your ideas, but never really said..."this is a better way."

tinman, first thanks for all of your postings, they are great. Second, in fairness to Hadd, his posting on here, the one that is referenced the most, is mostly concerned with the aerobic build up that will take you to the phase of the more up tempo work. From what I read into it, he feels most are fairly under developed when it comes to the aerobic work and that they can make big improvements just by doing aerobic work and not worrying about all of the other stuff, and then once they have reach a good aerobic base, then the more intense work begins. In general, it seems like his aim is to "re-tool" and then start with work to get you to racing sharpness. Just my take on things.

Also, I think the following maybe one of the best posts on here. I think people want to over complicate things, but this in a nutshell seems to sum it all up:

--- tinman in early post ---

The keys, as I see it to marathoning are fairly straightforward. Your plan hits them head on.

1)Long runs and long hard/progressive runs;

2)Faster reps at close to 5k pace farther out from the race (in addtion to the long runs) for aerobic capacity development plus strength which can allow one to do the MP type workouts with ease.

3)More and more MP miles/ LT as part of the weekly or bi-weekly schema as the marathon approaches, thereby creating simulation and specificity

4)Higher mileage

5)Consistency

--- end ---

I think the science end of running is very interesting, but I wonder if sometimes people (the runners) get to hung up on the nitty-gritty. The ex-phys guys are great at looking at all of this info and I think a lot of it bubbles to the top as general concepts. I think that is what the runner really needs to focus on, these general concepts, and point there training in that direction. And then there may be times that they need to really understand these low level concepts to really fine tune the training process.

Again, thanks for sharing all of your info.

X:

I agree with you. The ex. phys. guys or gals do go into a lot of detail at times in attempting explain what is known from a science point of view. That is fine but not what the average person needs, necessarily. Perhpas the most important thing the average runner can take from our discussions are principles to apply to their own training. Bill Bowerman said many times in interviews that each runner is different and the only way to train each one correctly is apply "the principles" such moderation, progression, adaptation, recovery, pacing, specificity, individuality, callousing - simulation, rest, nutrition, etc.

I will add that everyone sits upon overlapping continuums which go in differing directions. Here are just some from off the top, so to speak:

Genetics (ability to respond to stimuli such as training)

(types of muscle cells one has, etc.)

Disposition (attitude, often base on nuturing and successes)

Emotional Stability (affective moods)

Background (experiences such as running to school, multi-

(sport participation...motor-neural elements)

Training (what workouts one has done and whether the effects

(are still in existence)

I am sure there are many more. The art of coaching is often related to understand what each person brings to the fore.

It is my hope that that each person understands themselves well enough to apply training principles. It is my hope that satisfaction is derived from participation in running or whatever endeavors one undertakes. Ultimately, we must decide if our time spent in running is worthwhile in terms of both extrinsic and intrinsic rewards. To me, now older, slower, and unable to produce my best performances, running brings on new meaning. Now, I seek to help others. I open my doors and let in wanderers looking for rest, consoling, and encouragement. I listen. I clarify if asked. I provide guidance when needed.

I am an old warrior now, but my spirit for the sport never dies. Though I did not know it as a youngster, the real reason for being involved in the sport was not a reason at all, but rather a feeling. I can still have that feeling, though my feet are slow. I am satified now because I understand that what is most important is to be passionate about what one chooses to spend time doing. I hope each person knows that passion too.