1k Repeats At 5k Pace - how many

Show me his schedule, then we have something to discuss.

also well now- We know that elite athlete's do some very tough sessions. But most of the time you'll find that most elites training is nothing out of this world.

Do you have any experience actually seeing or training with any of these athletes when they've done such sessions.

Or can you actually point to any elite athlete's logs of insane workouts.

Go through Shaheen's training and you'll see some tough sessions but nothing remotely like 10x1k w/ 1min rest at faster than 5k pace. Go through Steve Scott's training and once again there will be some good tough workouts but nothing crazy. Same thing can be done with Malmo's training or Ritz's.

I name those athletes because those are the ones that we have logs of from direct sources (either themselves or their coaches).

And lastly, having had the opportunity to train with some elites over the years, notably two guys, one of who was sub 1:44, and one sub 3:50. I found that the vast majority of the sessions were not that amazing. And people would have guessed they would run faster in workouts. The difference was they were able to do high quality workouts more consistantly than your average guy. Meaning, joe blow would do a very good workout and then be fried for a couple days and his next workout would be sub par.

Quote from Renato:

Michael, sorry for destroying your dream to see Kenenisa and Shaheen together in Edinburgh again, but at the moment Stephen is out of training for an injury. I go back to Europe next Friday, 15, and on 20 I go to pick him in Zurich, for going to Freiburg for the last control with a famous German Dr. If everything will be ok, Shaheen can start his training, very soft, at the beginning of January. This means that he cannot compete before March. So, if you read from some organizer that Shaheen goes to compete, you know that it's not possible, and the information is false.

Regarding the workouts of specific Aerobic Power for 800m runners, I want to remember that there are two different typologies of runners : fast runners (for example, Juantorena, Konchellah, Susanj, Fiasconaro, Everett, Borzakovskiy) coming from 400m, and resistant runners (Coe, Cram, Yiampoy) able to run very fast 1500m. Of course, a workouts of 4 x 1000m in 2:23 is something for a RESISTANT RUNNER.

Shaheen did in August, before Zurich, a training like this : 4 couples of 1000m (2:00 rec.) + 300m (recovery 4:30 among couples) in : 2:25.6 / 40.8 - 2:24.8 / 41.3 - 2:24.2 / 42.0 - 2:23.2 / 40.3. According to my opinion, before Zurich Shaheen could run 3:29 in 1500 and, if could try a race of 800, about 1:45 on that distance.

I don't think absolutely that working for Aerobic Power can reduce the Aerobic Capacity. Instead, it's true that your Aerobic Power decreses if you work too much in the lactic area. And also, I'm not complete owner of English Language, but which is the difference between Aerobic Power and Aerobic Capacity ? May be that I use other words for telling the same thing.

To improve you have to train exponetially harder, but we can't increase mileage exponentially, so we have to find other ways. One of these is to do harder sessions with shorter recoveries.

Also, Haile's 10x 1000 in 2.30 with 2 minutes recovery is no harder than my hardest session of 10x 1000m and I recovered quickly from that session.

4x1k,300m

Is a significantly different workout than 10x1k w/ 60sec rests.

Look at the rests for someone like Shaheen. 2min and 4:30. The 4:30, for someone as aerobically developed as him is near full recovery.

The aim of that workout wasn't to be a typical 5k paced workout.

That session was 1500m training. I'm not comparing it to 10x1000,

Also, this idea that the top runners are fantastically well developed aerobically is a myth. They don't have a higher VO2 max than many much slower runners. This just doesn't happen. Aerobic development is limited. Improved Neuro muscualar co ordination it the key to superior performances.

If you look at Shaheen's specific endurance 5k sessions, they are all manageable. From his logs:

(workouts with some work done at or near 5k pace I found:)

3 couples of 1200 + 400m (rec. among tests 1:45, among couples 4:00) in :

3:05.3 / 56.9 - 3:03.6 / 57.1 - 3:00.9 / 56.1 (9k)

4 x 1600 in 4:06

800 in 1:59.6 (rec. 3:30) + 1200 in 2:56.7 (4:30) + 1600 in 4:01.4 (8:20) + 800 in 1:58.7

10 x 600 in 1:33.0 rec. 1:00

2000 / 1600 / 1200 / 800 / 400 (rec. 3:00) in 5:18 / 4:10.6 / 3:06.8 / 2:00.6 / 55.2

3 x 1600m (rec. 5:00) in 3:59.9 - 4:02.7 - 4:01.4

2 sets of 5 x 600m (rec. 1:00 among tests, 5:00 among sets) in :

1:30.6 - 1:29.3 - 1:30.3 - 1:29.5 - 1:30.0

1:29.6 - 1:29.8 - 1:29.3 - 1:29.7 - 1:29.9

3 x 1200m (rec. 3:00) in 3:03.6 - 3:04.1 - 3:03.8 - (rest 6:00) - 6 x 400 rec. 1:00 in 57.6 - 57.4 - 56.0 - 54.6 - 55.2 - 53.4

Hopefully, that comes out. The point is that he does some great sessions, but nothing out of this world. They are almost all sessions that any well trained runner could do if they were adjusted to his PR's. The difference is most runners couldn't do that many sessions of quality work without breaking down.

You're making the assumption that VO2max is an exact measure of aerobic development.

And I believe that it's not.

Improved coordination absolutely plays a role. But it is a mistake to think of one thing as the limiter in performance. That is where thinking of only VO2max got us.

The human body is far more complex than anyone ever gives it credit for, and simplistic notions that VO2max or increased neural signaling for motor unit recruitment are the end alls for improved performance are silly notions.

Pretty obvious "wellnow" sees training as an end in and of itself and not a means to racing better or improved fitness.

I get the sense that he is more satisfied when he does a great 10 x 1k workout then when he runs a 5k PR if he thinks the 10 x 1k is at a higher level.

Never once in my 30+ yr career do I ever remember awards being given out for the guy who did the best workout, nor ever seen a race handicapped based on prior training.

Experienced elites will tell you that its years of 80-90% effort workouts that get them to the top not those 100% ball buster workouts.

wellnow wrote: That session was 1500m training. I'm not comparing it to 10x1000,

Then don't use that quote from Renato to back up your ridiculous claim that elite athletes regularly run sessions like 10 x 1000 at 5k pace with 60s rest.

wellnow, you call JK or whoever else has posted on here "pretentious." The same could certainly be said of you. Add on top of that caustic. And a bullshitter to boot.

You've never run 10 x 1000 at your current 5k pace on 60s rest, NOR have you ever run the fictional 4 x 600 on 800 pace with 5 minutes rest.

Your thesis about neuromuscular coordination being the key is simply that - your own personal thesis - and repeating it over and over doesn't make it any more true. I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong, at least not entirely, but I will say it's hard to muster the enthusiasm to even attempt to read into your claim, when you carry such an air of self-claimed authority with little of substance to back it up.

Back to the OP's question, my own take is that 1000s can be run in many different ways for many different purposes. A high volume of them (10 for example) can be run on short rest (like 45-60s jogging), but at somewhere between 10k to half marathon pace. A lower volume session on longer rest (4-5, say, on 3:00 standing rest) can be done at around 3k pace. If you want to do them at 5k pace, then 4-6 with something like 75s jog (200m) is a sensible session. These sessions all have different purposes, but are all good training stimuli.

Overreaching in training, like this mythical 10 x 1000 at 5k pace with 60s rest, is not going to produce good results for most runners. That's the opposite of a good training stimulus.

IHMO.

How about 10x 1km repeats alternating between slightly faster than 5k pace and then the following rep easing back to a comtrolled threshold tempo pace with recoveries of 90sec between them?

I've been set this to do tomorrow so i'll see how it goes!

caller outer wrote:

Your thesis about neuromuscular coordination being the key is simply that - your own personal thesis - and repeating it over and over doesn't make it any more true. I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong, at least not entirely, but I will say it's hard to muster the enthusiasm to even attempt to read into your claim, when you carry such an air of self-claimed authority with little of substance to back it up.

not only that, he can't even lay claim to it as his thesis. "The pretentious JK" already put the same idea in print... see a good chunk of this article is about trainign neuro muscular co-ordination for long periods---

that's mostly about slower stuff but he also posted the same ideas about training to have prolonged co-ordination at faster speeds as zuzu's petals several years ago...the consensus was that was JK. and I'm PRETTY sure...not 100%.. he posted as Billy Beer, Stig O'Tracy and Lord Kinbote at some point. Sounded like him. Look up some posts by those guys (guy?) and you're bound to find a lot about neural training, "effiecient recruitment of motor units"...oneof his favorties... and how important all that is to speed-endurance and race performance.

on the other hand, well now just copies stuff like this and spits it back out as if he understood it.

Agreed. Well non is a real twit.

i re-call reading somewhere that el g did 10X 1000m in 2:30 with 60 sec. sounds impressive but when his coach followed that up by saying 'after that workout I knew the gold was lost because hicham was over-training...' that was in 2000.on another note, when is 8X 1000m considered speed endurance training?

show this clown the door wrote:

I'm PRETTY sure...not 100%.. he posted as Billy Beer, Stig O'Tracy and Lord Kinbote at some point.

Billy Beer was JK? I dunno. That guy seemed kind of raunchy. Zuzu and Kinbote for sure.

And here's a couple of posts from Stig O'Tracy from the Jim Ryun story thread. Good thread, btw except Perry Mason and Living in the past just won't shut up. Decide for yourself .....

That do sound like JK, don't it? With the MCT trans whatchamacallits an' sheeit.

Michelle Branch Fan was another possibility - remember him? ..... let's play guess the poster.

For sure he's always been talking about training the neuromalogimacal blah blah to be able to relax and hold race speed. But he doesn't trump it up as something nobody ever focused on until he thought of it. As for the speed endurance, ..... Zuzu posted some hardass workouts in the past. Stuff like 1Ks at mile race pace but with more than 5 minutes off so you can get enough reps to imprint it. But everybody who's been there done that knows that ain't the secret either.

is it tinman?

I agree with your appraisal of Shaheen's training.

I believe hard but do-able should be the maxim, with regard to interval training.

curiously wrote:

You're making the assumption that VO2max is an exact measure of aerobic development.

And I believe that it's not.

Improved coordination absolutely plays a role. But it is a mistake to think of one thing as the limiter in performance. That is where thinking of only VO2max got us.

The human body is far more complex than anyone ever gives it credit for, and simplistic notions that VO2max or increased neural signaling for motor unit recruitment are the end alls for improved performance are silly notions.

VO2max is the best measurement of aerobic development that we have.

The basis of much of the training dogma touted in most literature and on this board concerns the mythology of continuous aerobic development. We need an alternative explanation for continuous development which is more realistic and as such, improved neural signalling for motor unit recruitment fits the bill for a simplistic explanation which most people can understand.

It's not a silly notion, to explain things this way because no intelligent observer is claiming that there is only one limiter of performance. To list all the limitations that we know would be a huge undertaking, but let me say that heat accumulation is much under rated as one of the limiters of performance and should be widely discussed rather than ignored.

Voice of Experience wrote:

Pretty obvious "wellnow" sees training as an end in and of itself and not a means to racing better or improved fitness.

I get the sense that he is more satisfied when he does a great 10 x 1k workout then when he runs a 5k PR if he thinks the 10 x 1k is at a higher level.

Never once in my 30+ yr career do I ever remember awards being given out for the guy who did the best workout, nor ever seen a race handicapped based on prior training.

Experienced elites will tell you that its years of 80-90% effort workouts that get them to the top not those 100% ball buster workouts.

Pretty obvious you have't actually read what I have written on this thread. That session lead to my best half marathon and marathon all within a few weeks.