IU not going to Nationals :(

Since you haven't heard one positive, then I will tell you I am thrilled with Coach Helmer and everyone else I talk to is also very pleased with how he teaches young men & women. Their scoring mens runners this year included 2 seniors, 3 true sophomores, & 2 red-shirt freshman. The next 8 runners all have at least 3 years of eligibility remaining. All from the US and all but two of those 15 are from Indiana.

As far as recruiting goes, his hands are pretty well tied for awhile in the distance area due to the committments of the former staff. Not blaming, just stating the facts that big investments were made in 2007 and it will take awhile to free up some distance money.

Maybe I don't understand correctly, but if UCLA beats Washington, isn't IU in and all the bashing gone?

Please move on and if you can't root for your Alma Mater then at least leave them alone.

Look - I never claimed to have been wined and dined by Helmer. In fact I have only spoken with him once, but please drop the "I haven't heard a single positive thing . . . " train of thought. It's a ridiculous argument for an anonymous message board poster.

Who are you? How many people have you spoken with? Maybe your sample size was too small.

None of these HS Coaches on here have been treated like royalty. It is true that under Randy Heisler and Chapman - numerous phone calls / emails from HS coaches were not returned. And these potential recruits were not 2nd or 3rd tier guys - they were top 3-5 in the State in their respective events.

The lack of professionalism was ridiculous. Now if Helmer's Assistants are continuing that trend - than the same problem continues to exist which is a shame.

I think the current group is wholeheartedly on board with Helmer. That includes Hubers who was Chapman's prize recruit two years ago. Hubers was going to come for a semester to check things out to see if he liked it. He did like it and he stayed put. Not sure why he has dropped off the last couple of races however.

Also - that freshman class posted solid track seasons last spring. Several of them went between 3:45 and 3:48 for the 15. Hardacre was 13th at Big Ten XC and 5th in the Big Ten outdoor 5K as a true frosh. Weatherford was a regional qualifer in the Steeple (9:04ish). Turner was 3rd in the Big Ten indoor 800.

I think it's a little premature to be blasting Ron and his staff. The guys didn't perform well the last couple of races this XC season - let's see what they do this spring.

No, IU still isn't in if UCLA beats Washington. Cal Poly would have then pushed in Washington in same order. The west teams rolled in one after the other...

Sorry,

Should have said if Wash doesn't run surprisingly well in the West then IU is in. Bottom line as I understand it is they were one spot away from returning for the 2nd straight year.

I know you can play coulda shoulda all day and bottom line is they didn't come thru when they needed to but wanted to point out that we're not talking about a program that has fallen off the radar only just barely missed the big dance by one spot from what I have read.

I don't know whats more embarrassing; the fact that they ran awful at Big Tens and Regionals or the fact that their athletes (current and past) have taken this thread so far that everyone in the country can now see what state their program is in.

IU did not have one guy on saturday have a very good race and only their two seniors had OK races. Not one guy besides desean turner ran even close to their performance at pre nats. This just points directly to a bad training plan to be ready for a 10k race in november. Oh wait...when was the last time Helmer trained a guy for 10k cross country up until last year????

Totally agree with the last post. This is getting too far and too personal. I ran for Coach Chapman. I was not our best runner, not our worst, but he definitely cared that I was on the team and improving. He wanted me to be a Big 10 champ and/or national qualifier for me more than I did. He's a great man who did rub some of the Indiana high school community the wrong way, but he took care of the guys who chose to run for him. I owe him a great deal, I learned a lot during my years in Bloomington. He was unjustly shown the door, and yes that hurts and angers a lot of guys who ran for him. He did have the second highest average place at Big 10s behind Wisconsin. This was after he took over a program that was last place at the Big 10 Championships. He did coach a NCAA National Champ, a USATF National Champ, NCAA Runner-up, numerous All-Americans. He did it with blue chip Footlocker finalist recruits and he did it with under-trained Indiana high school boys. I believe in Robert Chapman as a coach and as a man. All that being said, I wish no ill will towards the guys who are Hoosiers now. I'm not sold on Coach Helmer, there have been a few phone calls not returned by him as well. His results thus far are not impressive. There is a pretty good young core there however, that like it or not Chapman had a huge part in building. I hope that Indiana University continues to get better. I hope that these guys do live up to their potential. I still cheer for the crimson and cream and take pride that I used to toe the line wearing the same colors. I'll be in Terre Haute in a week and it does sting a little that there will be no Indiana Hoosiers there in the mens' race. I do believe that Coach Chapman would have had this team racing the Monday before Thanksgiving, but I will give this group of guys time to develop and continue to pull for the young men who represent all of Indiana University Cross Country. I will also continue to tell any young man or young woman who is willing to listen that Indiana University is a special place to be regardless of who is coaching the cross country team.

It'll be great when all this works itself out.

if a runner dosen't want to stay..leave.

The ones that want to stay...stay...

If anyone dosen't have a passion for what they are doing..they should leave.

But, I'm sure they all know that.

Now, lets start out with indoors on January 10th and fight for the cream and crimson!!!!!

There are a ton of people who care and want you guys to win......

and it is damn important to us like fans of any sport...

Go Hoosiers!

This sounds familiar. Chapman trained his guys well all year. They ran fast during the season, ran well at Big Ten and Regional and then, year after year, tanked at NCAA. This is classic Exercise Physiologist trying to coach. I heard Bob Kennedy (IU) describe training and racing as a combination of science and art once. He said you have to have an understanding of the physiology so you can optimally prepare the systems but you also have to turn things over to your gut and instinct at the right time and not let the science "take the compete out of you". He said that came from experience of racing and competing.

I'm not saying Helmer is any better than Chapman but Chapman was not a GREAT coach. He was adequate.

Chuck. I too am an ex IU runner but much older than you. I respect everything you said about Chapman and am glad that you had a great experience at IU. I would only argue the point that you think Chapman was shown the door "unjustly". There was nothing unjust about it. You may disagree with the hire or non hire but there is no right to the head coach position for any assistant coach. A university should never do that because it limits their options. The Athletic Department obviously felt they made the best hire for whatever reason (and I guarantee there are reasons that you and I are unfamiliar with). That's not unjust it's just unfortunate if you think Chapman was the best man for the job.

Go Hoosiers!

As a guy that ran for Coach Bell, my teammates and I always thought that Coach Chapman did a lousy job. The difference between us and the Coach Chapman athletes is that we never slammed him to recruits or anyone else. We cared too much about IU to be that vindictive. I guess the good thing is that we all had a good experience while we were there. It appears that the current athletes will have that same positive experience.

Yea, coach Bell did a great job of running the program straight into the ground thoughout the 90s with chapman taking the team from last place in the big ten to 2nd within 2 years of taking over the job from the old man. Chapman did a lousy job though...would the jeffersons had even thought about coming to IU if Bell was still the coach?? Ask guys who were coached by both Bell and Chapman which coach gave them a better team and individual experience.

No one has slammed Helmer to any recruits...in fact i dont know who the hell Helmer has been recruiting, but i do know that the only elite senior from the state of Indiana is not considering IU as an option.

Last year's regionals:

5th - Jordan Kyle

21st - Cole Hardacre

25th - Mark Fruin

26th - Timothy McLeod

34th - Brennon Plotner

41st - Ben Hubers

90th - Jacob Rich

Team Score - 111 pts, Place - 4th

This year's regionals:

22nd - Timothy McLeod

23rd - Brennon Plotner

32nd - De'Sean Turner

41st - Cole Hardacre

51st - Ben Hubers

56th - Andrew Poore

68th - Jacob Laird

Team Score - 169 pts, Place - 5th

Hubers and Hardacre finish 10 and 20 places behind where they were last year. These were Helmer's main boys from day one and they have gotten worse.

IU graduates NOBODY last year. Even removing Jordan Kyle and Mark Fruin, one would expect Hardacre to be a top 10 this year and Hubers and McLeod to be top 20's. Fill in Turner at 32nd and Plotner at 23rd (should they both have been higher? maybe...) and you have about 100 points from those 5. Leave Jordan Kyle and Mark Fruin at IU, and consider them both to be top 10's and you're looking at between 60 and 70 points and a contention at NCAAs.

This is definitely the athlete's fault huh, not the coach?

If it wasn't the athletes fault they wouldn't have to implement 6:45am practice 2 days a week just to make sure people get a morning run in because they cant do it on their own. That is all sir.

Nobody implemented 6:45's and you are blatantly mis-informed and dismissed.

Reading this thread, I was curious at the stated dominance that existed under the former staff and became outright intrigued when I read the post about having the second best avg as a team in Big Tens. So I looked up what I could on IUs XC site and find out the following for the 9 years of the prior staff (1998-2006) .

The facts as shown on the site are that IU’s avg place was 4.7 @ Big Tens, 5.75 @ GL and qualified for nationals 5 out of 9 years. While that is certainly a record to be proud of I think it is not quite the nipping-at-Wisconson’s heals that is being presented in this thread. Summary below. Feel free to let me know if there is an error in the info.

Big Ten GL Nationals

2008 5 5 DNQ

2007 4 4 28

Average 4.5 4.5

2006 6 6 DNQ

2005 6 6 29

2004 2 5 18

2003 3 5 12

2002 4 4 25

2001 4 7 DNQ

2000 2 4 17

1999 5 9 DNQ

1998 10 ? DNQ

Average 4.7 5.75

Who said anything about IU dominating? But..after getting 10th in Big Tens in 1998 (a team Chapman inherited) they were pretty good from then on. I'm just saying that people are ignorant for saying a young coach is underachieving when they take a bad team and getting them as high as 12th in the nation. Not to mention all of the individual success his athletes had (and not just his "star" athletes).

Agree that there was a significant rise in the early years but one would also have to admit that was followed by a significant downward trend on a team basis his last few years. From 12th to 18th to 29th to DNQ.

The fact that the current team is getting ripped to shreds for being one place from making nationals would seem to imply that IU has fallen from a very high place in a very short time under the new coach. The facts not only don't back that up, they refute it.

That is pretty cool that Helmer is doing as well as Chapman averaged during his tenure.