MITOCHONDRIA QUESTION for phoenix, tinman and others

Good info. I read also the article posted on ultramaratonworld.com that related to the same topic. Very interesting! I am certain that their is much to learn about abusive and chronic training. I have always said that short breaks every 3 months are necessary to prevent major breakdowns. I wonder if my recommendations of 5 days off completely every 12 weeks is on the low side. The good thing about being highly trained, research shows, is that you don't fall back to average every day Joe or Jane citizen levels and seem to bounce back into shape quickly after layoffs. I know that Joe Vigil used to say that you can take a week off and then be back to normal mileage by the end of the month. I have read that many of the African runners take long periods off each year after the tracks season is over. I wonder if their longevity is increased on the internationals scene as a result. It sure would fit in with the info. presented for discussion in this post about mitochondial degradations in long time endurance athletes.

Must go to relatives now for Thanksgiving. Cheers!

The LeMond citation is either incomplete or intentionally misleading. LeMond did have various metabolic problems at the end of his career, but it was diagnosed as due to toxic effects of the unremoved shotgun pellets from his hunting accident several years earlier. not chronic overtraining.

" The LeMond citation is either incomplete or intentionally misleading. LeMond did have various metabolic problems at the end of his career, but it was diagnosed as due to toxic effects of the unremoved shotgun pellets from his hunting accident several years earlier. not chronic overtraining."

Not sure it is either. I think it is very difficult to know for sure what induced LeMond's mitochondrial myopathy and Noakes makes no claims there. A doctor's diagnosis certainly isn't the final word, either. Noakes did not specifically say that LeMond's condition was induced by training. Just that it was the cause of the decline of his career. Noakes then reports on other endurance athletes who after many years of training suffered severe drop-offs in perfromance and had these grossly abnormal mitochondria. Could be that a genetic disposition toward it, coupled with hard training/racing, induces the condition in some athletes. Could be other environmental influences. I think it is far from clear.

Tinman, I want to write an experience that we had in Italy in 1990. At that time, we had a problem with 800m runners, having nobody able running under 1:46. There was a good group of very young athletes, born in '69-70 (Benvenuti, D'Urso, Giocondi, Bonamici, Chiavarini and some other less strong) that we wanted to follow for solving the problem.

In December 1989, we tested all the athletes (using a very simple Conconi-test) for detecting their AnT, after one month of long run, not very fast. Here are the data :

D'Urso 20,2 km/h (2'58" / km)

Benvenuti 19,1 km/h (3'08" / km)

Soffietto 18,8 km/h (3'11" / km)

Giocondi 18,8 km/h (3'11" / km)

Chiavarini 17,7 km/h (3'23" / km)

Bonamici 17,5 km/h (3'26" / km)

The athletes were assembled together in Turin (were we had an indoor track always open) from December for preparing their indoor season.

After some work non yet very fast (for example, 10x200m in 28", or 10x500 in 1'18" rec. 2'/3' depending on the athlete), they went for the first competition (10th of January) with split every 200m. The result was :

1) Benvenuti 1:51.2 (28.8 / 56.8 / 1:24.2 + 27.0)

2) Bonamici 1:51.6 (29.0 / 57.4 / 1:24.6 + 27.0)

3) Chiavarini 1:52.2 (28.5 / 56.2 / 1:23.7 + 28.5)

4) Soffietto 1:52.6 (28.7 / 56.6 / 1.24.0 + 28.6)

D'Urso and Giocondi didn't compete.

The athlete, during the next period, went for a training based on speed and lactic workouts, reducing long run very much (also for the bad conditions of weather, often snowing and under 0°).

Particularly Andrea Bonamici was able to improve very much in speed. One his workout, for instead, was 3 sets of 4x200m recovering 45" (5 min among the sets) in about 24"5/24", with the last 200m in 23"7.

They competed some time (2-3 times) in national races, improving only a little, but nobody was able running under 1:51.0.

After 40 days (20th of February) they went for Italian Championships, for qualifying European Championships.

The race was fast, as we had a rabbit pushing the pace in 25.8 / 52.4 / 1:18.8. All the athletes were destroyed, and Benvenuti won in 1:50.9 (last 200m in 31.2, because he was n. 3 after 600m !).

We were not able to understand soon what could have happened during the period of training. Few days later, we went with all the group in Tirrenia for beginning the preparation for the outdoor season. We tested another time the athletes using the same system (Conconi-test), and we found the following values :

D'Urso (non training with the group because he did't compete in any indoor race) 20.6 km/h (2'55" / km)

Giocondi (like D'Urso) 19.4 km/h (3'06" / km)

Benvenuti 18.1 km/h (3'19" / km)

Soffietto 17.7 km/h (3'23" / km)

Chiavarini 16.8 km/h (3'34" / km)

Bonamici 16.3 km/h (3'41" / km)

So, the results regarding AnT for the athletes, after 3 months of training, was the following :

Group A : Athletes NON USING very much LACTIC TRAINING :

D'Urso + 2 % (from 2:58 to 2:55)

Giocondi + 3 % (from 3:11 to 3:06)

Group B : Athletes using mainly ANAEROBIC WORKOUTS :

Benvenuti - 6 % (from 3:08 to 3:19)

Soffietto - 6 % (from 3:11 to 3:23)

Chiavarini - 5 % (from 3:23 to 3:34)

Bonamici - 7 % (from 3:26 to 3:41)

More the athletes used speed endurance at high level, with short recovery, WITHOUT HAVING ANY AEROBIC BASE, more they lost Aerobic Power, going into anaerobic system only for moderate speed.

More the athletes used workouts for increasing their Aerobic Power, more were able to be fast at the end of a very hard work.

Thru this experience we changed our systems, giving more importance to the aerobic basic work (not only long run, but long intervals on track and short intervals not very fast, reducing recovery times).

Thru this system, in 3 years we had Benvenuti 5th in OG '92 able running 1:43.92, and then to win European Ch. '94 ; D'Urso silver medal in WCh '93, able running 1:43.95 ; Giocondi 7th in WCh '95 and able running 1:44.85 ; and also Chiavarini ran 1:45.02, while Soffietto and Bonamici disappeared. The same school was used with Longo.

So, for us, the importance of having a high level of AnT (due to mythocondrial situation) is a fact now well known, and who was in our group at that time (like Gianni Ghidini, coach of Andrea Benvenuti) continues to use these systems also with kenyans like Bungei (1:42.34), Yiampoy (1:42.91), Kimwetich (1:43.03), Mutua (1:43.33) and many others, with different levels of speed.

runxusa wrote:

Tinman, Phoenix:

What can you tell us about the mitochondiral condition that LeMond and other endurance athletes are reported to have experienced later in their careers? Noakes talks about this condition as being induced by many, many years of inducing muscle damage in training. Any new insights here?

interesting question runxusa

Greg Lemond I feel, stopped training properly after his 1990 season, when he won the Tour de France for a third time. criticism of his training and lifestyle was well documented from January 1991 onwards with many riders and observers saying he had lost the plot.

he rode a good race in 1991 to finish seventh, but one of his main rivals Claudio Chiapucci commented early in the race that Lemond was not in top shape

from then onwards Lemond started to chage his preparation many times. putting on too much weight in the winter, forcing him to work his body too hard to regain condition for the Tour in July.

he then started to look for all sorts of reasons (excuses)to explain what he thought was an inexplicable loss of

condition

to put it simply, he was overtraining much of the time and racing too hard causing deeper and deeper fatigue for more than three years. he must have temporarily damaged his body many times in those three years.

this was the Miguel Indurain era, Indurain was even more talented than Greg Lemond.

I have requested a copy of the following article from interlibrary loan through my university. This is the article Noakes mentions in lore of running:

Exercise-induced mitochondrial dysfunction in an elite athlete.

Clin J Sport Med. 1998 Jan;8(1):52-5. No abstract available.

PMID: 9448959 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Anybody who has immediate access to this journal may read it earlier. I will report after I read it.

Phoenix, thanks for the info, and thanks for defending me when I was away, that guy scientologist is really arrogant and ignorant.

thanks also to tinman, Renato and others for your valuable contributions to this discussion

JonnyO

> Thru this experience we changed our systems, giving more importance to the aerobic basic work (not only long run, but long intervals on track and short intervals not very fast, reducing recovery times).

Steve Prefontaine did sessions of 4x 600/400/300/200/100 with slow 200/200/200/100/100 jogs. Times were moderate 1:45/68/48/30/14. Between sessions like this, he ran many 4 to 10 mile runs at 5:40 to 7:00 pace.

This is similar to Renato's sessions of 4x 600/500/400/300/200 with r1:30 between.

Similar are the "short intervals not very fast".

Difference with Renato's training, (1) speeds are closer together over the range of distances, 1:45 to 14 vs 1:33 to 28, (2) inclusion of longer / faster runs.

Renato:

Thanks for the nice info. on some of the elite 800m runners you worked with who suffered from endurance and threshold losses at important points in their season development. Obviously you are suporting my contention that training the endurance and lactate treshold are essential even in mid to late season. Coach Ron Gunn of MI said years ago that it is impossible to shoot a cannon out of a canoe. He was saying that all the effort put into speed and lactic acid work won't matter if your base is not solid. That base of endurance and stamina (threshold) need to be maintained all the way to the peak race. Otherwise, we might as well ask some 200-400m runners to run the 800m and mile races because they certanly have more speed and lactic acid tolerance than most middle and long distance runners. So, listen up aspiring runners, keep your threshold high by doing both slow to moderate mileage every week and threshold (tempo pace) workouts throughout your training and racing season.

You guys are doing a great job here. I've been attending to some duties but got to see the many words of wisdom here and enjoy the serious things. Makes me want to get going on new studies, but the fun now is in coaching and seems there isn't time for everything. Enjoy the holidays

tinman,

to draw simple conclusions from your research,

1. athletes should do pace training at paces relevant to the race or races in which they will compete.

2. pace training is not the same as speed work (sprinting)

3. slow recovery work must follow all hard sessions and races.

4. this must be of low or very low intensity depending on the level of fatigue.

5. training volume on recovery days can be maintained if the intensity is correct

6. with each passing day, running pace should be gradually increased until recovery is complete. wheter it takes one day or 5 days or even 3 months days after an extremely hard race.

7. athletes should do their own training and when training with other athletes, must find an intelligent way to fit their own training around the needs and wishes of others with regards to volume, intensity, recovery times and the natural competitive spirit within each individual.

8. an athletes level of fitness will determine their ability to recover quickly from training during the endurance build up.

9. an athletes level of fitness WILL NOT ALWAYS determine their ability to recover from a race. race recovery can never be accurately predicted, but of course it can always be measured over time.

10. overtraining, injury, fatigue, mood swings, poor recovery and illness, as well as poor racing results will result from a failure to observe the above recommendations.

11. Moses Kiptanui came down from the mountain to deliver me the above information.

This may be a stupid question but I want to know so I'll ask anyway.

My mother is one of the most unathletic people I have ever met. I am a pretty decent runner. I am actually the first in probably 4 generations that has ever been involved with athletic things in any way. If all mtDNA is inherited maternally, how did this happen?

Also, maybe I understood this wrong, but someone said that there is a max number and strength of mitochondria that one can have. Could this be why I am struggling to get any faster? I have reached this max? I have increased my mileage a lot and taken better care of myself, with no returns. Is this something that is out of my control?

Sorry if I interpreted the last part incorrectly, but I am very interested in this stuff and it's an honest question. Thanks for any help.

tinman,

i dont think that anybody really knows how to taper for a race, we just have to use knowledge and experience to guess, and be confident enough not to do too much or too little training.

the way in which the above facts you mentioned, might relate to racing must also involve psychological factors before and during the race.

a personality as strong and determined as Haile Gebreselassie or Paula Radcliffe for example, will often be able to dominate a race in such a way that they can alter their tactics to suit how they feel during the race.

it is interesting how every winner of the Tour de France has said that there were many times when they had to bluff their way through a days racing, acting cool when they felt terrible to discourage their rivals from attacking and acting exhausted or nervous when they felt good in order to make their rivals attack and waste energy. Then when the rival started to weaken the bluffer delivers the killer blow.

can we bluff our way through any race? only if our fitness is similar to our rivals. I suppose some days, mitochondrial mass might be down while enzyme levels are up and other days, enzyme levels up while mitochondrial mas is down. slight losses in mitochondrial mass or enzyme levels can surely only stop us racing well if we employ bad tactics.

Johny O:

Excellent summary you created! Cheers!

I particularly like point number 5. This point some folks really need to pay attention to. The frequent scenario for folks who have the "wt training" mentality is that resting is essential for progress. Running distances is not the same as wt training. Resting is often not needed. I'd say 10% of time when a person is really tired they need to take a day off. The rest of the time they just need to go for a slow run; slower by far than normal is some circumstances. Jack Daniels metioned that, but not in those exact words, in one of the articles he wrote for either Runner's World or the Gatorade Sports Science Institute. He indirectly said that running at a recovery pace was often a better way to recover than resting. I don't think he said it directly because (I am guessing) he didn't want idiots to go out and run a bunch of distance at too fast a pace and get injured, then blame him.

I will yell at the top of my lungs if necessary that slow running has its place in the training scheme. Even Mr. Lydiard spoke of running slowly every morning for recovery. Jumbo Elliot, famed Villanova coach of old, talked about unwise runners who had raced not doing a morning run and showing up for a workout the next afternoon unable to keep up with the others because they had not sufficienly recovered. Do you see where I am heading? How about Bill Bowerman insisting that his runners get to be by 10pm so that they would be rested enough to get their behinds out of bed for a slow morning run or swim.

Mileage generally does not need to be reduced when persons are tired or have run fast training or racing. Instead, slowing down the pace and doing sufficient endurance mileage is "the way" to go.

I will suggest also, Johny O, that you can add one more to your list of reality maxims for distance runners: You compromise your racing performance always when your stamina is low (threshold region). Renato supported my frequent assertion by posting about elite 800m runners who did not run threshold work and had sup-par perfomances by world levels one season and then corrected their mistakes by including more aerobic endurance and stamina work during their in-season training, not just off-season training. Stamina is your best friend, whether you are an 800m runner or marathoner; matters not.

I want people to consider the statement above once more. Any training you do put together intelligently that promotes or supports your region of stamina will help you run closer to your potential. What is the stamina region by my defintion? Marathon pace to 10k pace. I typically refer to the stamina zone as the maximum pace you can hold for a 1 to 3 hour race. I think any training in that zone is very helpful. That zone ranges from about 85% to 75% of max VO2. 75% of max VO2 is the minimal intensity at which fast oxidate glycolytic fibers are inintiated according to Bengt Saltin, et al. The fast oxidate population of fibers for most runners is in the range or 2-40%, so their aerobic development is very critical to overall perfomance.

Must close, gotta eat turkey.

Tinman: I always remember the time we did 24-hour catecholamine studies on a group of our 68 altitude runners. Norepinephrine, which reflects physical stress, typically increases with an increase in physical exercise. Interestingly, the runners we studied had no higher levels of NE than sedentary folks, which suggests that after some time the 10-15 miles a day that these guys were doing was normal (sedentary-like)for them. Saw the same thing happen when we went to altitude -- a daily increase over about 2 weeks then it started coming down (supposedly back to the pre-altitude "normal" values). Unfortunately after giving us every drop of urine, 24 hours a day for 5 weeks it bacame too much of a chore and we didn't get beyond 1 week at SL + 2-3 weeks at AL + 1 week back at SL and a final week at AL (not as high values this time) But it sure looked like the usual "sedentary" values were going to be regained. Another one of those things you want to do more of. It was this that partly made me feel that some easy running (a runner's sedentary life)is not really anything to worry about and that it can actually be considered time off. You are right, however that some people will take that to mean you never need a break and that you can just go on and on (who knows, maybe some people can -- depends on the type of stress)

My previous post should have read "20 to 40%" of most runners normal mucle fiber populations are fast oxidative fibers, not 2 to 40%. I mentioned the range so that people can realize how important it is to develop those particular fibers since they constitute a fairly good portion of the total population.

I am certain that a routine of slow 100 miles per week with no fast running will not train a person to race as well as a 60 miles per week with stamina zone training (75-85% of Max VO2) included of 20% by volume. I have personally run 15:13 for the 5k on nothing but 35 miles per week (post-collegiately) in which 2-3 runs per week of 4 mile tempo runs (at 15k-20k race pace) plus all the rest of those miles at a comfortable 75% velocity of 5k pace (about 1:45 slower per mile than race pace). I have very little running talent and have a history of three major surgeries on my calves and rt ankle, so you can't chalk it up to genetics. You also can't chalk up the fact that I ran a 4:01.89 for 1500m one week after the 5k yet the only run under 5:50 pace I did was in the race the week before. Now, you can call me slow, if you want, by elite standards, but for a guy who has had injuries and surgerines gallore, who weighs 178 lbs and has never been talented in running, I think the workouts I did show that threshold type training (in the stamina zone) were key. Keep in mind, I never broke 16 minutes for 5k in college in spite of doing a huge load of interval and speed training (which caused all those serious, debilitating injuries). Stamina, I sayl, stamina!

JTD:

Email when you have chance a let me know how things went for you this season. I know I haven't emailed to you in awhile, sorry to let things slide. Tom

it really doesnt matter if your mother wasnt at all athletic. you will still have inherited enough mtDNA from her to achieve whatever goals you want in the sport, provided that you go about it in the right way. It takes an awful lot of running to be an outstanding runner.

we all knew kids at school about whom everyone said "oh yes he or she is just naturally talented, just a born runner"

the truth of the matter is that those kids did a lot of running when they were very young

think about it, when we are six years old and we play those games of chase, they can last a few minutes, a few times a week, or they can be repeated over several hours almost every day.

yes, MANY VERY YOUNG KIDS ARE DOING A HUGE AMOUNT OF TRAINING as they play. They are also having a lot of fun doing it. By the time they are teenagers, they can run faster than many adults who have spent years killing themselves in training.

We can all do a lot to make up for lost years in trianing, but you might have to accept, you may reach your peak at a much later age than the teenage prodigy who went on to peak at 25.

I hope this was of some help to you. dont worry about what physical characteristics you have inherited, if you are in good health, then you will probably have the right genetic make up in your body to achieve whatever goals you want if you pick the right athletic events to suit your size and muscle fibre profile. If you train properly then it is your psychological characteristics that will make you a good or outstanding runner.

JonnyO

Good point about the normal stress levels in elite athletes Jack. I noticed the same thing when I used to interview cyclists for the press. After a race, professional cyclists would often seen very calm, even if they had won the race. The slower riders, however, would usually be in a state of great excitement.

I concluded that the fitter the cyclist, the less stress they experienced whilst racing against weaker opposition. The calmness they showed after a race could be interpreted by the onlooker as serenity, boredom or even depression when compared to the euphoria or agitation of others who had made extreme efforts to stay with the pace.

After coming to this conclusion, I said to one of these professional cyclists, "I'm not going to race again until I can dish it out"

Since I made that statement ten years ago I have converted to running, which is a lot easier as a sport in my opinion. The pain and anxiety I went through as a cyclist, without ever winning a race, gives me a much greater appreciation of the fact that most people are completely convinced that success in athletic endeavour is governed by putting the body and mind through huge amounts of pain and anxiety.

I now know that it is so easy to overtrain, through lack of specific recovery training, during which, stress levels are extremely low. Most runners dont want to run slow enough to allow proper recovery, because they say it is too boring. They are going for the adrenalin high day after day until they are forced to stop because of illness or injury, both of which are totally avoidable through correct training.

Instead of going for the adrenalin high, which I am sure is related to too high a lactate level, runners during recovery runs, should attempt to gain a more meditative, serene composure by running much slower at the lowest level of lactate, that is to say, very easy running. As the legs recover over the next few hours or days, depending on fitness and fatigue levels,training pace should increase.

I really hate that expression, "no pain, no gain" because so many athletes live by it whilst under achieving.