Sub 1:50 800m Training

this is really one of the best/most useful threads in a while! OldSub4, I have a couple of questions if you don't mind:

1) pace on distance runs. was it beneficial to push the non-workout days and run closer to threshold or did you just run them easy?

2) did you take any pre-planned days off or end of season breaks?

Familiarity with proper running form is certainly important for any running distance, but I think it is most important for the 800. No other race produces as much sheer fatigue as the 800. Cases could be made for the 400 or the marathon, but in the 400 it's only a 45-50 second race so form is easier to hold as long as you don't run within a second of your pr in the first 200. The marathon can cause you to lose form but it's a different type of fatigue-more of a numbness/general weakness. Are there any ways to help maintain form at the end of the 800? Just lots of drills? Weight sessions right after runs? Before runs? Ab work between intervals? Or just concentrating on keeping it together at the end of sessions when you feel knees driving less high, turnover slowing etc

Interesting on what running form causes what injury. I think most runners focus more on rehabilitation-icing, massage, stretching, exercises etc but not enough on addressing the mechanical factors that led to the injury. I think most people don't know what form errors typically cause which injuries. I sure don't, and I've had dozens of injuries. I think at the collegiate level you have to be fairly mechanically effecient to be that good. But still, even minor form flaws can potentially lead to injuries, especially over the years of training or during periods of high stress.

loki wrote:

this is really one of the best/most useful threads in a while! OldSub4, I have a couple of questions if you don't mind:

1) pace on distance runs. was it beneficial to push the non-workout days and run closer to threshold or did you just run them easy?

How about a revision to this question, because I suspect that the answer depends on this:

What should the pace be on regular easy and distance runs? Does this vary with which phase of your training cycle you're in?

As in, should most of your non-workout runs be faster during a base phase and should they be slower during the season?

loki wrote:

this is really one of the best/most useful threads in a while! OldSub4, I have a couple of questions if you don't mind:

1) pace on distance runs. was it beneficial to push the non-workout days and run closer to threshold or did you just run them easy?

2) did you take any pre-planned days off or end of season breaks?

Distance run pace was by feel--comfortably hard, build up to steady--from what I have read on other threads this is what the Kenyans do as well. I actually really tried to run alone on those days so that I didnt get sucked into someone elses "feelin good day". On the long Sunday run we would run together but it was clear we were going to plod through it and just try to get the "dead leg" feel by 1hr 20 min or so and run through it.

I would run 13 days out of 14 usually, but in retrospect I probably could have used an easy "week" every 6 weeks or so. I would get run down and would just run through it but had problems breaking down with injury that would ruin training momentum. At the end of summer season I would take about 1 week totally off (I think a younger runner needs a bit more--but not 6 weeks). You do build one year on top of the last....while you need to get away you can do that with just building back up your mileage over 6-8 weeks. No workouts during that time as you need to get from 40 mpw to 80mpw comfortably.

I have run this over in my head for the past 15 years, just cause I was so frustrated with injuries. If you really breakdown training a good 800m athlete, you are working a fast twitch system (gluts, high outside quads) that have a ton of power but dont want to work for long. If you lose focus and dont concentrate, you will start to "sit" in your stride, hips back, and work the slower twitch "pull" muscles like your hamstrings and soleus--it feels more comfortable since those muscles dont exhaust as quick. These muscles are not smooth, they are woven in with tendon connections, they tear, they tighten and adhese and pull your plantar fascitis over your heel bone (causing the faciitis) or pull your IT band over the outside of your knee. If you are strong muscled they will point all the stress on the bone in your tibia where the soleus connects and crack it. No matter how you feel you must have the runner catching their footstrike with the thigh/glut...

You might see a little waist-bending while running, or the back kick disappears...I think as a coach you can make a big difference with athletes by helping to be their "patience" and telling them to bag a hard day and run alone for 3 days easy to heal up. 1-3 well timed, unplanned breaks like that can be the difference.

Great thread. Thanks to OldSub4 and other contributors.

Well I'm not coaching anyone apart from myself. It's hard to pull myself away from training every day twice a day. Maybe sometimes too much motivation is a bad thing? Sometimes I think I'm doing too much. I was only doing 30-40 over the summer and went right into hard training when I got back to school.

Could someone please look at my 800m base training and tell me what you think?

M 5easy/6 with short hill sprints

T 5 easy/7+weights (squats, leg press, etc)

W 5 easy/6 with sprints+drills

Th5 easy/7easy

F 5 easy/7 over hilly course/6 1/2 mile hill repeats

Sa5 easy/6+weights

Su5 easy/6+sprints

That's about the gist of it, there was no single week exactly like that but most were similar. The longest runs have ended up being about 8-9 miles, but most runs are under 40 minutes.

I've been averaging about 80 a week with 2 hill,2weight and 1-2sprint workouts and doubles everyday. If anyone wants the actual day by day I can provide that too but I don't feel like posting almost a months worth of stuff unless I need to.

Is this too much speed/hill stuff? I've always tried to focus on the mechanics of running, and thought that the aerobics would just come from the volume. Should I be focusing on just intervals/tempos/volume? I've done long runs in the past, 13-18 with some regularity and up to 24, but those never seemed to give huge benefits and always messed my legs up. Are tempos/long runs needed for 800m in the base phase?

I\'d suggest the weights and sprints should be before the run for that session. A steady run is not going to have the purpose of that session compromised by the legs already being fatigued but not vice versa.

I don\'t agree good mechanics comes from volume. This may appear to occur when you get groups with good technique \"bashing out the miles\" but this is more down to natural selection than anything else - i.e. those with poor technique will break down and get injured rather. Their good technique is the reason they are able to put in high volumes, not the effect.

Lovely thread, im glad to see people contributing and asking questions...Thats what it's all about...

I do have a question, and it's geared towards weight training. Im going to periodically ask a question about training for 800m, but break it down into a category. So for this, I ask about weight training. Is Less really More (Heavy weight, but only up up 8 reps) or should I be doing more reps, less weight for muscular endurance? Also, I've read up on El G, Coe and all those beauties, but i've also read about the kenyans who use there hills as their "form" of weight training. If someone wouldn't mind mapping out their opinion, with what exercises to do, along with the amount of reps and how to transition from beginning of season to competitive phase.

Right now I do bench press of about 185, 50-75 reps worth of back exercises, run in place with weights (my favorite), squats (this is where Im unsure of weight/reps) from anywhere between the 45lb bar to 200 lbs, Abs..and that's about it, but of course there is variations in the exercises, but they're working the same muscle group.. Any thoughts?

I'd like to thank everyone thus far for their input into this thread, keep it up! =)

Anbessa wrote:

i've also read about the kenyans who use there hills as their "form" of weight training.

Some years ago I coached a 400/800 runner who broke 1.50 several years in succession. He did a lot of short speed work and developed significant arm and leg muscles without going anywhere near the gym, just from the repeated actions of the speed work.

This is an outline of the training I actually did. Looking back there are certainly things I would have done differently, but this training program through college got me to 1:48 as a senior.

July - September

Gradual build-up of miles after 2-3 weeks of rest from previous season. Miles built toward about 45-50 by early September. Pace was around 6:00-6:15. Did 6 x ~100 meter strides after 70-80% of runs. No one run was emphasized over any other in the program. All runs were aimed at the goal of accomplishing the week's mileage.

The month of September brought some limited work at just above a Vo2 max effort...i.e. 3 x 1 mile @ 5:00-5:10 on grass. Very long recoveries...5-8 minutes. These workouts were tailored toward work the top XC guys were doing. I felt the time could have been better spent on LT type stuff, but we did not have that option.

Average volume: 50-60 mpw

October - December

Start of more specific track work...one day/week. Track workouts were medium distance intervals around 400 to 1000 meters. Pace was around a pace we probably could have raced for 3k. Recoveries were shortened to 2-3 minutes. Overall the track workouts were moderately difficult...certainly not digging deep. The remainder of the days included the one day of an XC type workout with longer recoveries, with 4 days of distance + strides still around 6:00-6:15 pace and one longer run...10-12 miles + strides.

Average volume: 50-60 mpw

January - Early March (Indoor track)

Getting into more race specific intervals one to two (if no weekend race) days / week. In general, shorter intervals 600s-200s at paces near 800m race pace with paces varying just above and just below race pace. Shorter recoveries in general.

Every other day was a distance run followed by strides, with the exception of one day where the strides would be substituted for 6 x 200 at race pace or faster. Jog back to start as a recovery...~120 meters on the indoor track.

We would be into the racing season, so the weekend would be a race or another interval workout. Day before races would be shorter mileage (3-4 easy miles) followed by strides.

We were ready to race fast indoors off this training. Senior year, I ran 1:48 mid indoors and 2:22 1000m.

Average volume: 40-60 mpw

Mid-March - Mid-June

Similar to Jan - Early-March with track workouts moving outdoors as soon as weather allowed. The early part of the phase re-focused temporarily on endurance training with a return to mileages in the 60s. Early phase track work would also see a return to longer intervals (some 1000s/600s). Oddly enough, we rarely ran 800s in interval workouts after Nov-Dec. The coach was a big fan of 500s at race pace, followed by shorter/intense intervals. The last month of the season saw reduced miles (35-40) with lots of race-pace and faster than race pace efforts around 400-500 meters.

Average volume: 35-60 mpw

Bump, still looking for some weight-lifting tips and thoughts!!!

Alright, I'll bite.

I do leg extensions followed by hamstring curls (which I suck at for some reason) followed by Leg Presses (400 lbs, usually 10X5reps with 10 seconds rest)followed by Bulgarian split squats each leg (30 pounds) followed by squats with an overhead dumbell press(25lbX20,27.5lbX15,30lbX10,35lbX5 with jump), followed by abduction/adduction machine, which I always feel stupid doing for some reason.

Afterwards core stuff-ab bridge exercises(with twisting,dipping and pelvic lateral movement, side bridge with dips, leg lifts on side with hips raised, back bridges with one foot up, glute bridges with one foot up. Some stability stuff sometimes. I generally do this after a morning run of 5-7 miles but before the evening session about 6-8 hours later. Recovery isn't a huge issue, but if I try and do hills or sprints for the evening workout then I will hurt for a few days.

IMO, the best type of lifting a runner can do are low rep, high weight performed FAST. Plenty of research out there will show that rep ranges in the 8-12 range will produce hypertrophy. Stick to rep ranges near 3-5 (3-5 sets total) and you won't gain mass. Olympic lifts (cleans/snatches and variations) have aided my explosiveness alot. Before you start these get instruction on how to do them properly by a coach.

I think the circuit/weight/jump type training is very underrated for 800m runners. Granted, if one is doing high mileage the injury risk will be higher doing these supplementary activities, but during a period of lower mileage following the end of season break I think it is beneficial to EMPHASIS this type of work.

seb coe, borza, aouita, el g, webb, and countless others have done extensive work with weights/circuits/plyo's and they seemed to have done quite well :)

Again, done to the exclusion of volume this will merely make you good at these activities, but sustained muscle power is essential to 800m runners, and the higher your max power is, the easier it is to produce power levels at all levels lower than your max.

I think we can come to the conclusion of some key aspects of 800m training;

-moderate mileage in the 60-80mpw range seems to work for most 800m runners

-mileage done at fairly fast paces (compared to 10k/marathoner)

-keep at least one speed workout all year round

-optimal amount of drills/weights/power training

-2 high-end aerobic workouts a week during endurance phase

anyone else care to add to or change the list?

Anbessa wrote:

Bump, still looking for some weight-lifting tips and thoughts!!!

I tended to bulk up and put on weight, so I did not do any arm work at all.

What worked for me on the weights was high weight, low rep - just trying to build the very top end of the period, hypertrophy the fast twitch fibers so that I had some basic power that I could to train to LAST. No need doing lower weight/ high reps in my mind as you get that from running itself. I thought it was important to do something dynamic with explosive power, so I would do the following combo of plyos and weights

1. 25 Squat thrusts -- EXPLODE into them as fast as possible, then come back down into the push-up position slower to recover....amazing how your core improves on this alone.

2. Cleans to work the glut/ thigh....fairly complicated lift, you have to look up somewhere to get a good instruction on this, but essentially you are taking very little knee bend and exploding your hips through with weight resistance. 3*15 to start to get form (4 weeks), then 3*10 (4 weeks) then 3*5 upping the weight. Repeat cycle...

3. lunges with weight....just to check symmetry and stabilizing muscles on each side--I am left leg dominant like most runners (inside leg of the track) so I really needed to concentrate on my right leg to even out...its the one that always got injured!!! Worked the hamstrings, lower quads (inside of knee) well

4. Last were just some box jumps to put it all together...try one leggers and you will know you are fit

For me -- two fast twitch workouts per week -- 1*hill session and 1*weights, or if winter 2*weights...I would cut the weights out by sharpening phase

You know your body better than anyone else, but my intuition is that you are doing too much of the same thing....7 mile runs plus something fast twitch at the end. I would reduce the hills/weights to total of 2-3 sessions per week, add in one SLOW 90-105 minute run (works an entirely different system), and add in one 6 mile tempo run that hurts a bit. I know it doesnt seem to make sense but improving those two systems helps you hold ANY PACE at any level for longer in my opinion. All of the sudden you could run a 50 second quarter and now you can't run faster but you can run a 1:17 600m. Additionally it helps you recover...it will absolutely deaden your legs, stiffen them and slow you down at first and will take 12 weeks to acclimate, but you will come out the other end better. Once again, the "catch" here is concentrate during the long stuff and DONT LOSE FORM...you have to stay healthy in the lower leg.

Agree on your views on the weights although I think a base period of 10 rep sets (maybe for a month) is worth doing before moving onto high weight low rep, otherwise I personally don't feel I have the raw strength to get the most out of the more power focussed training. If you do that one month at the start of the training year any bulk you put on will drop off over the next few months pretty easily.

"I think we can come to the conclusion of some key aspects of 800m training;

-moderate mileage in the 60-80mpw range seems to work for most 800m runners

-mileage done at fairly fast paces (compared to 10k/marathoner)

-keep at least one speed workout all year round

-optimal amount of drills/weights/power training

-2 high-end aerobic workouts a week during endurance phase"

Obviously different things work for different people, but I'd say that much volume isn't entirely neccessary for an 800 runner unless they are looking to run the 1500/mile at same standard. Since the 800 is for most a predominantly anearobic event I feel that should be the main emphasis of the training and that can be addressed by both threshold work, technique and tolerance work. I think the week should be a mix of speed and power work, technique (I feel hugely neglected), lactate tolerence, lactate threshold, aerobic - obviously everyone is different so the proportions will vary. Also, I think you should train to your weaknesses, not your strengths otherwise you'll never realise your potential over a distance and more often than not, just continually move to other ones (usually longer).

I'm not a huge fan of an overall mileage number as I don't feel that reflects what is done at recovery pace, tempo pace, race modelling, on hills etc.

We did not do any weight work with the lower body.

Upper body weight work was usually kept light, higher reps. The weight was as heavy as we could manage while still accomplishing the number of intended reps. Usually 3 sets, reps of 12-15, recover while partner lifts then go.

Lifts would consist of:

bench press

vertical shoulder press

shoulder shrugs

tricep push downs

bicep curls

upright seated lat rows

lat pull downs

core work

-we actually used the 8 minute abs program on almost a daily basis

Anbessa wrote:

Hello all, I just got finished with the book "Train hard Win easy" by Toby Tanser. In it, it had several biographies citing several methods of training, in particular about the 800/1500m. I'd like to, if it is possible, to start up a "serious" thread about what you would do to break 1:50 as well as training for elite times (1:41-1:46) including periodization, training weeks etc. etc. . Hopefully some of the more distinguished posters and coaches here will chime in. But i'd like to get a feel as to what the general consensus is in terms of training, types of training and so on, for the 800m. That being said, it is perhaps one of the hardest distances to train for, and one of the hardest to race!

i think you are referring to the book "train easy wind hard" which is the real secret to everything.

i love how you are considering elite times to be 1:41 to 1:46, as though all elite times are run in that range. 1:41 has been run by one guy. might as well say all 800 timmy's between 1:27 and 1:47