Time for complete overhaul of 'how to train' US elite distance runners: the system is broken

u rule big guy wrote:

the top runners should all move to Oregon and train under Salazar.

Actually what Salazar wants is the best 14 year olds to start training under a system that would gear them towards the olympics. You don't think we already do this in baseball, basketball, tennis, gymnastics, and golf? That is where he got the idea, but for some reason, there is a resistence to start training seriously at that age. Until that bias is resolved, we will have a lesser chance to produce great distance runners. Do you think it was coincidence Tiger was on tv putting a golf ball when he was 2 or 3 years old?

ripvanracer wrote:

u rule big guy wrote:

the top runners should all move to Oregon and train under Salazar.

Actually what Salazar wants is the best 14 year olds to start training under a system that would gear them towards the olympics. You don't think we already do this in baseball, basketball, tennis, gymnastics, and golf? That is where he got the idea, but for some reason, there is a resistence to start training seriously at that age. Until that bias is resolved, we will have a lesser chance to produce great distance runners. Do you think it was coincidence Tiger was on tv putting a golf ball when he was 2 or 3 years old?

How's that working? Almost everyone who has worked with Salazar has left him or burnt out. His vision is not a healthy one.

The US has always focused on competition among Americans. We get worked up about national champions, whether NCAA or USATF, fast times from Stanford, intramural events like the USATF Marathon championship, the 8km championship in New York in March,etc, and then the crown jewel of domestic competition, the Olympic Trials.

Then we pretty much ignore things. We don't pay much attention to what people do on the track in Europe all summer. We don't go to road races with international fields, Peachtree, Boston, Bix, New York, with any regularity. And when our people go off to World Championships and Olympic Games where they have to race against people who have posted faster times and have been running against international fields they don't fare really well. Why does this continue to surprise us? If we want to do better internationally then we need to restructure the sport in ways that encourage our top people to seek out competitions against international fields rather than to avoid them.

Having said that, I'll add that our international performances have not been all that bad overall. We had TWO medals in the marathon in Athens. We have TWO medals in the women's 10,000 in the last WCs and Olympics and we can't really make an assesment about this year's performance until everything is finished. If we medal in the marathon again, if Fam..., Fami... however you spell it finishes well in the steeple, there will be threads here about how US distance running is back.

Ballyhoo wrote:

How's that working?

He has had only one athlete train with him in that type of system and that athlete placed 13th in the olympics as a just turned 22 year old college senior. I would say they are very successful so far.

So the US collegiate system is to blame?

If we take a look at this photo...

http://www.iaaf.org/OLY08/photo/index.html#46827

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that guy at the back with the big smile on his face... didn't he go through the US collegiate system?

Unlike the other guy at the back who isn't looking quite so happy... but surely we can't blame the collegiate system for that?

Not to mention the women's 10k - arguably the fastest women's 10k ever - top 2 women went under 30 minutes and the top ten all under 31.00. Three women in that top 10, including the bronze medal winner went through the US collegiate system.

Seems to me that if you are looking for something to blame, you might want to be careful you don't throw out the things that are working reasonably well, unless you've got something much better to replace it.

better than Shawn Kemp wrote:

He has had only one athlete train with him in that type of system and that athlete placed 13th in the olympics as a just turned 22 year old college senior. I would say they are very successful so far.

One you say? Alberto has had many how no longer work with him. For good reasons.

hung out with a kenyan today who is going to be running for oklahoma christian (an naia university i know i know...like u guys even care) but the hell with it...his name is geffrey something but i wrote down my training plan for him to evaluate and he said it was too speed oriented and said that the key to distance running (like others have said on this thread) is miles! go figure? to run fast at a long distance u have to run a lot of miles for years to become developed into a fast distance runner and its really not that hard to figure out hmmm...lets see...start out running x amount of miles at x pace according to your personal capacity and build up progessively at your own rate...anyway the point im trying to get to is it takes YEARS of time to develop one's aerobic ability and talking to geffrey today he said its taken him since 2001 to get to the level he's at 5k- 14:04/ 8k-23:33/ 10k-28:56 and he's continuing to improve everyday. lastly i think our lack of medals on the world stage in distance running can be accredited to our dumb ass society's constant fast paced lifestyle and unfortunately most of us fall into that lifestyle...anyway again trying to get to my point lol...anyway the point is THERE ARE NO LOOPHOLES and i agree with others on this thread who have said that we should go to the old-fashioned way of distance running and run MILES along with running with training groups. One last thing haha Geffrey said that it is very important to have training partners especially people who are faster than oneself and when he said that i couldnt agree more but i found myself thinking how ironic..with our society being very INDIVDUALISTIC...anyway ill get off my soapbox... just wanted to give some helpful advice that im going to apply to my training now and hopefully you will also! OH! and look out for geffrey something in the naia he will WIN nationals in cross country and some individual titles in track! you heard it here first!

................ wrote:

Seems to me that if you are looking for something to blame, you might want to be careful you don't throw out the things that are working reasonably well, unless you've got something much better to replace it.

Even though I am far from being an expert in the US running scene, I think the college system works quite well. I mean many countries in Europe are lacking any kind of organized college sports, which leaves training and everything else to the individual. The college system is so competitive with so many talented runners, why blame it for that?

Further, I got the impression that in the US you are very demanding when you are talking about mid/long distance running. Again, there are countries (with successful running tradition) that would be grateful to have 3 guys in the 1500 semis and 3 the 10k. In my opinion, in the long distance events, the US runners perform really well. Why always refer to Ethopian or Kenyan world record holders?

because the east africans have DOMINATED on the world stage for the past i don't know how long but a LONG time and who doesn't want to strive to compete with the east africans someday? uh no one

because wrote:

...and who doesn't want to strive to compete with the east africans someday? uh no one

I get your point, and I agree that everyone should strive to achieve the best possbile (which is to compete with the East Africans). The problem I have are the discussions about how "lost and weak" US distance running is. I just think we are complaining on a very high level.

The US is doing better these days than in the past 15 years.

Webb, Flanaga, Hall, Tegenkamp...

malmo wrote:...the same system that routs the world in every other Olympic Games or Worlds Championships is suddenly broken?

I feel like the attitude towards distance running in the US is perfectly summed up by how Galen Rupp and Chris Solinsky have been treated by the distance running public.

Rupp...

- Olympian

- Collegiate record holder

- Conventional training with unconventional supplemental work

- Never had an NCAA title to his name

- Kind of funny looking/fairyesque

- Hated on by the distance running community (for the most part)

Solinsky...

- Multiple NCAA titles

- Scruffy looking "everyman"

- Conventional training, quietly uses a lot of the less exotic, but far from common, supplemental work

- No notable accomplishments, or even presence, on the international playing field

- Beloved of the distance running community (for the most part)

Dopameter wrote:

AR...bronze medal 10000m

AR...steeple

PB...steeple

near PB 10000m, steeple

STFU

Nice list, but the bronze medal is the only thing on there worth mentioning.

The fact that Barringer set an American record and only finished 9th actually strengthens the argument something is wrong with U.S. distance running. Same with Willard's PB and 10th place finish. Same with Rupp's near PB that only netted him 13th place. You're only proving his point.

the problem with US running is that very few athletes dont get serious or developed in the sport until after high school. We need to have an AAU league just like basketball. We need to have experienced coaches training and developing groups of high school kids from the age of 14 and up, regular high school coaches cant do it for the majority. If we had these kids training properly and developing their fitness during the summer or the winter, without burning them out (less racing more training), these kids would be better prepared for the future. They would be allowed to grow in experience and fitness even more through the college system which would teach them a whole new aspect of running because its a higher more competitive level.

We have to start from the roots and too many kids are developed properly during high school therefore having them to catch up once they get to college, which I feel by then is somewhat too late.

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[quote]quantum wrote:

Anyone surprised the final 5k of the 10k today was at 13:12, with a 53/54 last lap? I sure wasn't. Nor was my brother, out with his kids all day and out of the media loop, who surmised that the Ethiopians and Kenyans ran a 55 sec last 400 with a 13:10 5k before even asking the results.

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In order to run a 53/54 last lap for a 10k, how fast would your all out 400 have to be? 46/47/48? We may never know because the Ethiopians and Kenyans are not interested in the 400 - they are distance runners. Are these elite foreigners really "slow" or do they have "speed" that we do not know about?

I would like to know how many of our distnce runners are capable of running a :46 400? Do we need more of our "slender" :46 400 to forget about being long sprinters and be willing to put in the miles where they might be more successful in the distance events? I don't have the answers - just the questions. I am interested in the answers from those who have seriously evaluated our distance programs.

fair american wrote:

Dopameter wrote:

AR...bronze medal 10000m

AR...steeple

PB...steeple

near PB 10000m, steeple

STFU

Nice list, but the bronze medal is the only thing on there worth mentioning.

The fact that Barringer set an American record and only finished 9th actually strengthens the argument something is wrong with U.S. distance running. Same with Willard's PB and 10th place finish. Same with Rupp's near PB that only netted him 13th place. You're only proving his point.

Doesn't prove his point in the least. The athletes mentioned all ran well and some above expectations or previous performance. There was nothing that would indicate any better "how to train" was going to work any more wonders for these athletes.

Dopameter wrote:

no excuses..... wrote:

this disgraceful and embarassing showing by the US, the richest country in the world, with the best training facilities and opportunities to succeed in the world is BROKEN. Time for a completely new system. Any ideas?

AR...bronze medal 10000m

AR...steeple

PB...steeple

near PB 10000m, steeple

STFU

However, setting ARs that are very much off the winning time much less WR time is not exactly a great thing. Flanagan finished about 26 sec off the winner in setting her AR and that is probably a minute or more off the WR.

advice from a kenyan wrote:

............. it takes YEARS of time to develop one's aerobic ability.............

That's the big myth that everyone is repeating. Developing aerobic ability is the easy part of running. The hard part which takes years is developing stride power and efficiency. You can run all the miles you want, but unless you work on the really important stuff, you won't develop your true talent.