Spivey better than Webb

Would love the story on what happened to Joe's running after Oslo. He absolutely destroyed everyone at the collegiate level for a few years, knocks out an Oslo win at 24 years old, then really nothing. I dont remember him having bad injury problems, but I do remember him disappearing in a few US Championships and Olympic Trials. The "fall" in '92 is still unresolved for many. I've looked at the tape a bunch...you just can't tell.

"Not having the desire to run" was too harsh and not accurate I agree. But it looked from the outside observer like he really did not like the race pressure anymore...I am way overpsychoanalyzing here, but for a decent amount of elite runners you can get those huge performances (running above your fitness) by using the "fight or flight" response. Problem is that if you aren't committed, your brain can subconsciously hit the off button (flight). You've seen plenty of runners mysteriously pack it in...I'm not saying this is the best way to mentally prepare for racing, but if you are able to summon the "fight" level of adrenalin you can really get a special performance once or twice a season. Has nothing to do with mental toughness..I've raced way above my fitness and it was painless (best races often are), and felt the most pain in my career totally choking in a race. The most consistent racers use preparation-centered confidence to go into every race relaxed. Obviously the better way....

The race you are thinking of was the Crain's Challenge 12K held in July of 1983, later became the OctoberFast 12K which obviously became an October race for a couple years.

I am pretty sure Jim Spivey did not run the Crain's Challenge 12K in 1983. Also I believe John Wellerding was the winner in 1983.

JS, thanks for the specifics of that race. We enjoy B.Diemer and all he does for the West Michigan running community. He's a class act like yourself. Thanks!

Crain's 12k in the West Suburbs of Chicago

I was there, but did not race. Invited runner to speak to the racers. Can't find in my logs what year that was - but it was hot that day.

js

Long Kinser

Start: Go out from the IU fieldhouse, starting by the front doors of Assembly Hall on the South side, around the South side of the Football stadium, past the guns on the West side, and until you get to Dunn. Turn right out of the parking lot by the Bus pick up, and make your way to 19th street. Turn left onto 19th. This road has a slight rise, and go over the top and down the other side to Walnut, coming out by the (old?) Howard Johnsons. Cross over Walnut, to the other side and head down the hill on the road that leads you into Cascade park. West Gorely road is what Map Quest states. First left, go up the hill by the bottom of the Hotel, and head West up to Kinser Pike - turn right (North). Cross over 46 by pass, and head North on Kinser, past Bloomington North HS. Stay on Kinser. The "flat" mile stretch is just past BNHS. Follow Kinser to State road 37. [in 1985, coach Bell stopped the team from crossing over 37, as we would race the cars to cross so as to not stop]

Cross over 37 and go up the hill to the right. This is still Kinser Pike. Follow to the right(used to be a house on your right with a big dog), and then it loops down the steep hill to your left and you cross a small river on a bridge. 5 mile mark was in this area. Use your GPS.

After crossing the bridge and as the road starts to loop to the left (back north), take North Bottom road up a small hill to cross over 37 again. Cross 37, and then you have to go down into a grass area to get to the South bound 37 road. There used to be tires tracks, and when coach Bell would drive along and give us splits, he would drive down this embankment and up the other side to make sure the splits were accurate. I used to race this mile and try and beat him to the 6 mile mark, as he would wait at the 5 mile mark to make sure everyone recevied there 5 mile split.

Turn South on BR 37, and head back towards campus. This was the worst part of the run, as you ran for about 1000m along a 2-lane road that traffic sped at 55 mph or more.

First street on your left, take it and then immeadiately turn right on Stone Mill road - this gravel road runs along 37, but no traffic. 6 mile mark is on this stretch.

Follow this to the stop sign, on North Old 37, and turn right. Cross over 37 again, and into Cascades park. Run through the park, about 2 miles (great quarry on your right after you enter the park), and go back to Gorley park road. Take this up the small hill to cross over Walnut, and back up 19th street hill (a killer with 1/2 mile to go) and finish on the South side of the Football stadium, about even with the Goal posts.

js

My question is how much speed work would you do with a 15, 16, 17 year old? would you sacrifice a year or two with long term development in mind? at the time i was running the odd 400 even though i was a 1:51/1:52 800 guy clearly moving up to the 1500. i wonder if i'd spent another year working on that speed if i could have been a 1:46/1:47 guy which would have helped tremendously, especially in the tactical championship races that seem to dominate.

Tough question. I don't know if you can develop speed - it has to be there from the start. I did like this workout my HS coach had me run as a senior, in prep to ran the 880:

5x200 - start at the 50y line on the track, run 200 m finishing on the other side of the track at the same point [so run from the 150m mark on the track to the 350m mark). Turn left, and jog across the infield. When you get back to the original starting point, this is where you would start again. I ran 5 of these, on a :60 second cycle. When the watch said :60, you started your next one. If you ran 33 seconds for the 200m, that gave you 27 seconds to jog across the grass to the starting point. It sounds like a lot of time, but is not. Run a couple of these in 28 seconds, and the 32 across the grass you really have to focus on to get back to start.

The next set, 5x200, we would run the same part of the track, but stop and walk around. Still 60 seconds cycle, but you had 30 or so odd seconds to stand.

Then we would do another set of across the grass.

I have had my adult running club (www.jimspivey.com) do this workout, ages 25-60, and they would say to a person, that this is maybe the most difficult workout we do. I put the groups on different cycles - some :65, some :70, some :80 and some :90, giving them more rest across the grass. Also, if some of the runners are running 52 seconds for the 200, they need to be on 1:30 or 1:40 cycle. And, maybe you cut down the reps to 4x or 3x. Two weeks later, the athletes showed an increase in speed and better form on the track.

I do believe that each year builds upon the previous year. If you put in a good base year, you benefit the next. I think that in 1991, after running some great times from July 1-21, and then getting injured, it helped my 1992 season. I took 3 weeks off, and then started my base building Fall on August 20th. This was about 5 weeks earlier than I normally started, as ususally I raced through mid-September.

js

"old sub4"-

joe certainly had many more injury problems than anyone realizes or let on to. he had plantar fasciitis so bad in '91 that sometimes he wouldnt even want to walk to load the boat to go fishing- which if you know jp, that's quite a big deal. in the mix, remember that he was also at the age of wanting to start a family, and i think there were lots of stressors from that. trust me that he wanted desperately to succeed in his athletics career. he had crushed atkinson only a few weeks before new orleans without any hint of being pushed. in fact, he said that he felt like he could have run 2-3 seconds faster had he gone earlier. his workouts certainly confirmed that feeling, i'm sure. being close to the falcon training camp, NOrleans was one of the worst feelings i have ever had in athletics...a truly tragic feeling of hopelessness when we saw joe go down. i can't imagine what he felt on the inside if we all felt that bad. it was a horrible thing. he used to have a small medal around his shoelace that someone had given him, and even that got ripped off in the fall. in no way should that incident ever be misconstrued as anything but a complete accident. remember that morin went down as well, with spivey and holman pulling clear of the field over the last bit. unfortunately, i have seen quite a bit of BS written about falcon over the years. being honest, i really don't understand it. you will be hard pressed to find another individual that cares for his friends and family more than falcon. he is generous to a fault- no one realizes that he gave away all of his gold ncaa championship rings- 11 of them? watching him in full flight when in peak shape was really something to behold- in training or on the track. johnny mac even once said that he really believed that joe could have been the first man under 27 minutes for the 10k (before ondieki). i think his experience in track and field (both the highs as well as the lows) has made him into the truly solid man that he is today. likely, he would probably agree, though i wouldn't want to speak for him. so, let any or all of that dissuade you in your psychoanalysis. from someone who was there, your analysis couldn't be more off the mark (i don't say that in an ugly tone). like i said, he's a heck of a guy, and anyone who is priveleged to have gotten to know him (especially over the recent years) is a better person for it.

I asked Coach John McDonald of the University of Arkansas when I was coaching at Vanderbilt University, and we were both at the SEC conference meet, who was the most talented distance runner he coached in his last 25 years (I believe he was named head coach in 1977).

I remembered Nial O'Shaugnessy (spelling - I know, awful), Grahm Hood, Frank O'Mara, Paul Donavon, and others.

He spoke without hesitation: "Falcon."

I looked at him with surprise. Not because he said Joe's name, but that he did not stop and think about it for a minute. He had coached so may excellent runners, and Alister Craig would run amazing that year for him. But my question was 'most talented,' and he knew.

To go from top of the World winning the Dream Mile in 1990, to 2 years later:

Star News Services

OSLO, Norway - Joe Falcon ran into more disappointment Saturday. Less than a week after failing to qualify for the 1,500 meters in the Olympic trials, Falcon withdrew near the halfway stage of the "Dream Mile. " Falcon, a 1984 graduate of Belton High School, stumbled at the start of the race.

Advice: Race like it is your last race today, as for tomorrow, you do not know what it holds. In 1993, I ran 3:52.47 for 4th place at the Dream Mile - and you could have walked up to me after the race, and said, "You will never run a mile faster than that again." If I would have know that on the day, could I found another gear with 200m to go? I think so. Athletes always think that they will run faster, tomorrow.

js

Have to separate between Joe the person and Joe the runner. Falcon was always the nicest, most gracious guy at the meets, kind to everyone even when he was on top of the hill. No one will deny he is a really good person. Perhaps too nice, not self-centered enough to keep the 100% focus.

The stories you just relayed seem to support my intuition that Joe really shut down mentally at some point. Mabye he did want to do something different with his life -- have a family, be a cop, etc. All great things. It is just dramatic when you happen to be the reigning American miler at the time in your peak years and you fade out ingloriously.

I can empathize a little...I quit at 24 in the best shape of my life because life was moving on and I wanted to have a family, but I was 7-8 seconds back from Joe so nobody noticed! Much, much easier out of the spotlight. America did not need another 145/335 guy to clog the trials and get spanked by the kenyans and algerians.

Trust me, all of us would have enjoyed seeing Joe race 10 more years and move back up to the 5k and 10k.

On speed development for HS Boys....

I think for younger boys, you grow tall and then after that you put on muscle and power. By 18-19 you are probably done at a basic getting faster over a 400m (if you train hard you can shave another second off like MJ). Turnover and muscle reaction are most a nuero thing, highly genetic, so JS is right about you being born with "most" of it. For me, as an 800/1500 guy my 400m was as follows:

age 14: 60

age 15: 56

age 16: 53

age 17: 51 (1:51.7 800m that year)

age 18: 49.6 (times 2 in practice-- 2 prs in a row)

age 19: 48.0 (windy day 50 degrees so a bit slow)

20-22 no improvement

age 23: 47.4 relay split (nice day, finally broke 48--1:46 800m that year)

Look at training logs for Coe, Scott, and El G -- you see as a basic part of the mid year training some kind of 10-30x a 150m steep hill at hard effort to develop pure stride length and explosive power. The 200s with low rest probably simulate something close. Depends on the runner -- JS seemed to have very naturally "quick feet" and mabye needed to do less pure speed training. Coe also did alot of plyometrics. I played Basketball in HS in the winter and it really helped --

"The stories you just relayed seem to support my intuition that Joe really shut down mentally at some point."

-again, and without reservation, i'll tell you as one who was there almost every step of the way, that you are dead wrong. i guess i really don't understand why people perseverate on their own assumptions when they are really nothing more than an outsider. really baffles the mind- very strange.

Damn right!

This is the best thread on letsrun, by a long shot.

Keep the posts coming, Jim!

Must join in.

Jim stayed at my house each summer 1986-93/94. Great memories and I ran his last workout with him before Rome 87. I also had the privilege of having Terry Brahm, Jim McKeon and other US runners stay.

Regarding Jim vs Scott vs Webb: Steve Scott helped me climb the roof to fix the TV aerial- he was a complete gentleman like Jim,, both great ambassadors for your country. Try to not be too critical of Webb, the media will do enough of that, get behind him. If he wants to do it the Spivey/Scott way I've got a bigger house now and cook better.

It's 11.30pm and I've had a glass or two of lovely French wine so I could get carried away. Quite simply, if you bloody Americans had a sensible selection system Jim would've been Olympic Champion in 88- Bile and Cram were injured and the race was won by a Kenyan no-one can remember who never won another race. Jim ran 3.31.01 that summer.

Speaking of milers Baddeley has an outside chance of a medal in Beijing

I agree...I vote for Spivey as the best LR poster of all time.

Jim, you should write a book!

London Pete wrote:

Must join in.

Quite simply, if you bloody Americans had a sensible selection system Jim would've been Olympic Champion in 88- Bile and Cram were injured and the race was won by a Kenyan no-one can remember who never won another race. Jim ran 3.31.01 that summer.

Speaking of milers Baddeley has an outside chance of a medal in Beijing

Very well said London Pete!

Badds is in fantastic shape and he is a racer. It will be an interesting Olympics for the 1500m...no clear favorite from what I can tell outside of Komen (is he healthy?)

If I had not been able to stay at 15 Hillside Grove in Southgate, London from 1986-1994, 9 years (!) while racing in Europe, with Pete, cats Sooty and Sweeps, I would not have been able to 1). Peak at the right time; 2) Had a career that lasted 14 years after college and 3). Build a great friendship.

The problem I found in 1981, 1983, 1984 and 1985, was that I would travel to Europe and try to adjust to the time change. No meet director wants to put you up in a hotel for 6 or 7 days to get adjusted, so you fly over and race 2 days later. Flat. I have to admit, in 1985, I did not enjoy going from city to city, and only racing.

Merrill Noden, former excellent HS miler from New Jersey (4:12?) and ran at Princton, was doing a story in 1987 for Sports Illustrated. He asked me what was the most difficult item of racing in Euorpe? When I told him about the travel, and never being able to relax, do a week of workouts, laundry, he said I should contact the owner of 15 Hillside Grove and fellow member of the North London AC. Pete invited me in, and my coach Ken Popejoy, massage thearapist Kevin Moore, runners Terry, Steve, Jim McKeon, and Bob Kennedy, all stayed at some point at his home. It was small, a 2 story townhouse with 2 bedrooms, but a great location of the Tube train line and close to 4 parks.

The workout Pete mentions was on August 31, 1987:

Last workout before the World Championships in Rome.

2 miles AM

2 miles warm-up, 8x100 strides

5x200 fresh (100 jog between), 30.4 average [400]

Mike Durkin wanted me to run at 30 second pace, as the heats would probably go out in 62-63, and he wanted me to not feel uncomfortable at not having trained at that pace.

1x400 - fresh first 200, hard last 200.

Pete took off about 10 seconds or so ahead of me, jumping in to do his part of helping me train. I went through the 200m in 26.5, then put the hammer down. I caught "Spider" with about 70m to go, and flew by him. Nothing better to feel good while running, in control, and walking down someone easily. No offense, mate! But you were there on the track. I jogged a 400 slow, then

5x200 (100) in 31.4 average for the 5

1.5 miles wd, next day flew to Rome.

Thursday heats - opening 400m 62.9,then 60.9. 3:40.48 for 4th, 53.7 last 400m

Friday Semi-finals - opening 400 62.0, then 62.3. 3:40.63 for 2nd, 53.0 last 400m

Sunday finals - opening 400m 63.6, next 60.5. Last 40 53.22, last 300m 40.42, last 800 1:48.8.

I hope would be 1500m runners take note of the splits - If you only train at sub 55 in practice for 400m, 63 feels awful in a heat.

The amazing part of the Rome Final is that from the 1000m mark to the 1200m mark, I ran 52.7 and lost ground to Abdi Bile, who ran 52.3.

js

Hi Jim,

I went to a high school in the same conference as Fenton. When we used to run at Fenton we'd look at your records and marvel at how good someone local was. I was at the PanAm Games and Olympic Trials in 87/88 and watched you run at both (I have some pictures of you warming up and running at each).

You were a real inspiration to us in the northern suburbs. Thanks.

Matt

I realize this is post is somewhat after the fact, but I wanted to add to what thurston already stated.....as Joe's brother I can tell you that he was the most mentally tough person and competitor that I have ever known. I can also add that his falls both at the 92 Trials and the 86 NCAA CC championship were genuine and not some act. For some reason all of the Falcon boys (Joe, John and myself) have never been blessed with the greatest balance. I still remember walking down the aisle of a toy store when Joe was in Jr. High and seeing him trip on absolutely nothing and do a flip, landing on his back. I wanted to thank thurston howell for his defense of my brother...I typically don't like to post, but I felt everyone would benefit by having a first hand perspective of the competitor he was and the great father and husband he is today.