Canadian Joint Task Force (JTF2)
Canadian Joint Task Force (JTF2)
"the marines Reconnaisance are the toughest SOBs by far."
Because they looked tough?
You can be in combat every day of your life, it doesn't mean you're good or the best at it. That's bad logic. I'm not knocking them, but they're not the toughest 'by default.'
"The other service SFs are gentlemanly, often jovial and preppy, although manly nonetheless."
Now you're just showing that you really don't know the field. Thanks for stopping in.
All of you are retarted, the clear winner here should not even be up for debate.
The soldiers from 300!
This...is...SPARTA!!!!!!!!!!!!
/thread
The Israelis were the best, maybe not anymore. Read about the Entebbe rescue to see how good they were.
Ok...here are some FACTS...
Out of the 24 special force competitions held in the united states ( which include the best special forces from the USA, UK, China, Russia, Germany and various other countries) covering all divisions of special forces, the Turkish Maroon Berets recieved 1st place in 22 of the 24 competitions.
I worked in the Pentagon as a law student and the marines Reconnaisance are the toughest SOBs by far. Recon is in combat every day. The number of days in combat are the same as marine infantry units and they perform the most daring missions regularly unlike the other services which spend most of their time in the rear not in combat each day. Another major observation. Recon marines look the part in person. They have the look of death even when wearing civvies. They walk and talk the part. The other service SFs are gentlemanly, often jovial and preppy, although manly nonetheless. The Recon leadership is also awesome. Recon does not allow Pentagon career staffers to ticket punching for 1 month to get an administrative service medal and a promo. The Recon marine captians, lts, sergeant majors, tops, 1st shirts, etc. are badder asses than the lower ranks, take more risks, and get killed more often too.
trollism wrote:
How do you know how competent the SAS are?
For obvious reasons, UKSF (SAS) is a known quantity to SCOM. Although, I have never personally trained with SAS, I am familiar with their selection process and training and w/o a doubt, they are unique and well prepaid for their mission. If you recall, in my post, I referred to the RANGERs as the best soldiers; I did not say they are the best unit. Since the UK is an island, their focus is on air and sea; the SAS has a very broad mission, they are akin to SEAL and US Special Forces, but they are not infantry soldiers per se.
re: trollism
...end of my discussion on this topic.
Ok...here are some FACTS...
Out of the 24 special force competitions held in the united states ( which include the best special forces from the USA, UK, China, Russia, Germany and various other countries) covering all divisions of special forces, the Turkish Maroon Berets recieved 1st place in 22 of the 24 competitions.
The Turks were the most awesome troops during the Korean Conflict as well. But let me ask you, how many casualties did they receive ? How many enemy did they kill ? What were their objectives ? What support units did they have ? Did they use the data from their conflict with the Kurds or when they slaughtered the British, Chinese and Koreans.
put any of them up against a grandmaster of any korean martial art(tae kwon do, hapkido) or japanese(aikido), and they DIE--no doubt about it.
Trackcoach,
When I was in (78-82) the 82nd Airborne half our company had Ranger tabs and some even had Special Forces tabs and so on they just chosed to stay in the 82nd because the mission was different. At Ft Bragg the 7th Special forces was right next to our Battalion and nearly all their guys had Ranger tabs. It was common at Ft Bragg to see most of the other special groups having Ranger tabs in addition to their own speciality. Not to say Ranger Battions were not highly trained as the others. From my own experience the "Delta Teams" at Ft.Bragg always demanded (and got) the most respect. We had a training "Drop Zone" called "Holland Drop Zone" which was the farthest from the Ft Bragg Barracks, about 25 miles. I can remember Delta Teams "high stepping" back to base with 90lbs ruck gear and passing the other groups (Special forces, rangers, airborne, etc) and everyone being in awe. I remember these guys didnt even look like soldiers, they had beards, long hair, and different uniforms, but they were moving (10 min per mile/walking fast), that's what you call "High Stepping"!
We have a war now and can compare real facts and not training statistics.
Look "War Now"....the aveage Sgt and above in my Pattoon and Company(including all the units I talked about) had two or three "CIB's" each...if that means anything to you!
You dont't have clue do you?
Oh I see. We all know that stats can be used for planning purposes only. Since we have a live war now, we can use actual and not extrapolated data to determine results. Has anyone analyzed this subject matter.
This was the Commander of the 2nd second during my stay....he had two CIB's! Most "Old Soldiers" of that time did, espcially in the 82nd Airborne Division because most war vets enjoyed teaching and being in the elite units. Sargent Major Greenhouse of the 82 douce had three CIB's....I bet his experience would not be considered just Statistics....you are a ass hole!
http://www.nationalinfantryfoundation.org/advisor_lindsay.shtml
All American and then some! Airborne!
War now....do you know what a CIB is?
or a recon tap, a ranger tap, senior jump master tap, CIB tap, what a patch on the right shoulder means, etc.....War now...you really are clueless!...please spare me....
woops...I mean tab...sorry
When you train in the Military, the extra training you sign up for is set up where go a individual not a unit, for example, if you are in Airborne, Air assault, or Halo school etc etc....you are with guys that are going through SEALS training, Ranger training, Force Recon and Special forces training etc etc...again. When the day is done and you sit down with your peers....most of the talk is....Delta training is the toughest.....at lease it was in the late 70's and early 80's.
most of the trainers were War vets from Koren and Vietnam vets.....maybe their experience/opinions should not be considered stats "War now"....maybe a book would make more sense to you!
I can not speak from the standpoint of having been in a SOF unit. I can only speak from being in the military and having 2 friends who are Team Guys (1 active, 1 reservist), 1 friend in SF (also went through Ranger school) and another in the pipeline as of this post. And a really good aquaintance who is a PJ.
SEALs get a lot of the media press. Let's look at the training. Their training is a beatdown. Aside from being a kick in the nuts, it is also a lot of just chest-thumping beatdown with all of the breakdown PT. The cold water is a legit weeding out process as well. But here is the thing. If you make it through Hell Week and into 2nd Phase, really, once you get through Pool Comp you are basically golden and will graduate BUD/S. Plus, do you realize that you do get weekends off to recover throughout most of BUD/S. But make no mistake the cold, the constant running in that ass-kciking sand and surf, the O'Course, etc, is obviously great at breaking down the masses. And of course we know what a lot of their missions encompass, being a lot of Direct-Action, in and out assault work. And yes, more of the same, cold, wet, and sandy in their missions. The only easy day was yesterday as they say.
(Oh and for you individuals who might scoff at quitters especially as seen on the Discovery Channel, one of the guys who quit on there later came back as an LPO and made it through. And Medal of Honor winner Michael Mansoor, yep, he also had to quit I believe b/c of injury reasons. But he came back and I salute guys him.)
Lets look now at SF. During much of their Q-Course though they are in the field, sleeping in the field, eating MRE's and especially through most of SFAS, they do not get weekends off. This again is a contrast to BUD/S where you do have much better barracks (and yes I have been to the NSWC a number of times). I believe also if you look at their training, it is a lot of rucking with very heave loads. This is not as dramatic as what a person goes through for most of your time at BUD/S. It is not as flashy and the SFAS and Q-school instructors are not nearly as in your face "motivating" an individual. My point is that this can all wear a person down quite quickly as well.
And lets look at their missions too, they go out into the field for weeks and months, they are not in and out, and back to the base as most SEAL Teams and other units do. So as far as being "hard" and "toughest", there is a case just as easily that SF is harder. As well, except for the X-Ray program they typically attract an older and more mature (doesn't mean ageing) experienced individual. (Read the book Chosen Soldier by retired SEAL Dick Couch, it will help open your eyes).
Let's look at Ranger school, (which many SF guys go to)much of the same, days and days in the field and one thing that you don't find at BUD/S and that is caloric restriction for a good portion of training. 1 MRE a day in some periods I believe, tell me that wouldn't wear on an individual.
PJ school, or "Superman" school, really it is a lot like BUD/S. I will spare you the details, but I can tell you that one thing that it has that no other school has is the crappy ass Texas heat.
I don't know a lot of the Marines newest SOF unit but do know that they were trained up a lot by Team guys. Their first foray into the GWOT apparently showed that the unit needs some time to mature and that there is more to war than just blazing guns. But, I love Marines, and a smart Marine, one selected and tasked for SOF type missions, watch out as that is also a gem in our U.S. arsenal.
I'll skip the rest as this could go on and on.
One common permutation that I have seen in all of the individuals I know who are in SOF(s) share a common trait. For those familiar with retired SEAL Stew Smith he summed up what I have seen, they all share the no-quit attitude and would likely pass whatever school you put them through.
It comes down to what type of mission you want to do more of. I am glad that they are all on "our side".
Also, as I re-read my post, don't misinterpret my tone when comparing SEALs and SF. Much more is publicized about the SEALs and BUD/S as opposed to SFAS and Q-school. (Again I believe as SFAS is just a completely selection process and also not as perhaps flashy as BUD/S). I just wanted to point out a little more on possibly the least media attention grabbing of the two, SF. And because, well, Team guys are just as much of an tough aggressive force.
Consider practice just that, practice. Plus, from the posts thus far, people claim that one group or another is the best based only on their own service, national bias or training, which is not actual data. There's a real war going on now and someday we'll get the scoop on who is really the best from collected and verifiable empirical data. Until then we can only speculate.