800 meter training

Great discussion so far.

But I still don't buy into the need for long miles and long intervals. To build up the ability to run 5x400 at race pace compared to 3x400 at pace one doesn't need to build an aerobic capacity through long runs/long intervals. Increasing the number of 400s gradually while running low milage could also be achieved. Once an athlete feels comfortable running 3 @ pace additional intervals could be added on.

An individual's training is a balancing act. If you spend too much time running high milage and longer intervals you'll take away from the time spent on quality pace interval training sessions.

I think a base is important ... the questions is how much base. This email thread started as what's the right training for a pure 400/800 meter runner, so it doesn't make much sense to discuss training that was right for coe, cram and snell as their training was designed to enable them to run a good 1500 as well.

I've had decent success with 400/800 as well as 800/1500 people, I'll try taking a stab at this, besides I had this written up for an athlete in the past, I just recycled it here. This isn't necessarily what you should do cause that's up to your coach, just what I've found works for my athletes.

All training for any distance event from 800-marathon falls into 1 of 4 categories or zones. To build an athlete best prepared to race their event (regardless of choosen event), I've found that you should develop all 4 areas of fitness to have the greatest odds of improving race times. They are:

1. Aerobic conditioning.

Performed primarily through moderately paced sustained runs of 30-120 minutes at 55-75% VO2max. Long runs, double days, weekly mileage, etc.

2. Anaerobic conditioning.

Performed primarily through 15-25 minute efforts completed at 75-90% VO2max. Tempo runs at slightly slower than MP down to 10k pace.

3. Aerobic capacity.

Performed primarily through 2-8 minute reps at 90-100% of VO2max. 10k pace to slightly faster than 5k pace.

4. Anaerobic capacity.

Performed primarily through 30-120 second reps at better than 100% VO2max. 1500 pace or faster

Now this isn't something I'm making up, I stole it from Dr Martin and Peter Coe's book. Their premise and that of most other top coaches I know states that for the best results in terms of racing fitness you have to spend consistent training time in each "zone." Boil down the training of the top distance runners since the 70's and for the most part you'll see all of the above addresssed consistently. Sure some don't, but by and large the vast majority do and that's the key here, what has the greatest odds of making you faster? A program that 1 or 2 guys have success using or one that most guys have success using? Even that "speed" demon Coe addressed all the above. Same for Ovett. 200m-half marathon, he could do. XC? No problemo there either. Same for Scott and Aouita and brother James - well maybe Robinson had some problems with XC, but the guy ran some serious tempo runs around Lake Merrit of 4-8 miles at better than 5 minute pace and he did that regularly. To adequately address the above zones, you should do longer runs/double days/weekly miles to develop the aerobic conditioning aspect, you should spend time developing the anaerobic conditioning aspect through consistent tempo work, you should spend considerable time developing VO2max through things like 800-1600's at roughly 5k pace and you should spend some time doing 100's, 200's, 300's, 400's at speeds of 1500 race pace or faster. This doesn't mean you do it once a year and it's addressed. This means you focus training time on each element the vast majority of the training year and you should do it regularly. Sure the emphasis of each changes depending on the time of the year and the timing of the key competitions, but each element should be addressed regularly throughout the training year. Spending too much time during the training year worrrying about and focusing on any single zone at the expense of the others is a mistake in most instances because a key piece of racing fitness get's neglected which is why 800 guys who throw all their eggs into the easy weekly mileage basket without a corresponding percentage increases in things such as VO2max development, tempo work and speed work fail to improve. The unfortunate result is they think that mileage doesn't product results for the 800 runner, which is generally false if you develop the other aspects of fitness along with the volume of weekly mileage equally. Same for runners who focus on speed (anaerobic capacity) and disregard the other elements of fitness, they do not generally improve. Same for any single element of fitness. Neglecting any is usually a mistake.

Now from personal experience it's little wonder in my mind that when an athlete can get fit enough to do workouts that they couldn't even consider doing the year before in all training zones, they run a pretty darn good middle distance race. The speedwork such as hyper fast 200's is easy, it's fun. The athlete usually doesn't need much convincing of this. The things that pay off biggest in terms of faster race times are also the things that take the most mental and physical energy. The frankly scare the heck out of most middle distance guys not used to performing them. Workouts like 4 x 800 at mile race pace requires the kind of aerobic strength needed (in my mind) to race an effective 800 and if you've ever tried this workout, it is not even a little easy or fun. How about the old Oregon 400, 600, 400, 300 at 1500 race pace? Same thing here. How about 4 x 1600 at faster than 5k race pace, this is another workout that's often neglected, but helps tremendously. 6 x 1k at 3k pace, 4 mile tempos at 10k pace, none of these workouts are the least bit fun, yet they need to be done consistently to race a fast 800. I've found that if an athlete cannot develop the ability to do workouts such as those listed above but can still maintain the ability to run the hyper fast 200's, these athletes tend to be the ones with a sub-50 400 and a 1:57 800 time because they lack the aerobic strength necessary to race the 2 lap event effectively. This is how a Kenyan with 49 second 400 leg speed kills an American with 46 speed. It's the strength.

On the opposite side of the coin, you gotta develop the ability to run some fast work concurrently and you gotta develop the ability to do it with great form and ease. Things such as repeat 400's at close to max 400 speed, fast 300's that sort of thing. You gotta get these in as well if you're gonna race a good 800. The key then is having the ability to do any type of workout effectively. This is real fitness and it transfers over to faster 800's.

Here's a few example workouts from a guy who I coached that went from 1:52/3:46 down to 1:47/3:39 in a single season. He also went from 14:46 down to 14:12 and eventually down to 13:49 in 2 seasons. These are random workouts from spring 1999:

*4 x 800 w/ 4 min rec: 2:03, 2:02, 2:00, 1:57

*2 x 400 w/ 10 min rec: 51, 50

*2 x 800 (2:16 av), 4 miles at 19:00, 2 x 800 (2:14av) all with 400 jog.

*4 x 400 w/ 4 min recovery: 54/55 av.

*4 x 1600 w/ 400 jog. Average laps at 65/70/65/70.

*Long runs of 15-16 miles at 6 flat pace.

*85-90 miles a week.

*No weights, no plyos, no secret diets.

I think you can see he was fit based on his race results, but these results were based on his ability to run at any pace we wanted to work at and do it effectively. When he focused his training on the fast 200's, 300's and 400's at the expense of his tempo runs and double days amd long runs and 800-1600 reps, he ran slower and he was very inconsistent. 1:52 one week, 1:56 the next. When he did the program based on the above principles he just continued to improve. 1:54, 1:52, 1:50, 1:49, 1:48, 1:47. Same for his 1500. So that's the key in my mind, being fit enough to do just about anything thrown at you by a crazy coach in a workout. When Hesch did the same basic progression in 2001, he went from 3:47 down to 3:40 and made the finals of the USATF 1500 final in Eugene. When Aeron used a similar program last year, she went from 2:14/4:34 down to 2:10/4:18. All 3 athletes had much greater success when each of the 4 zones were addressed throughout the year than they ever had focusing exclusively on any single element such as speed or tempo work.

The other thing people forget to do and an aspect I have been guilty of neglecting in the past is not doing consistent work at specific race speeds to develop relaxed efficiency at race pace. It's the principle of Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands (SAID) which is a fancy way of saying developing specific race pace efficiency, another way of saying increasing economy. I now do a weekly to bi weekly session at 1500 pace if it's a 1500 runner. A marathoner get's a session a week at marathon pace. An 800 runner should get a weekly session at 800 pace, particulary after the start of the New Year. Not a lot, but it's in there consistently. No way a runner automatically becomes efficient as any race speed in my mind and a main reason why my past athletes ran horrible indoor races only to run great outdoors. Without consistently practicing their race pace they couldn't effectively race that event. They just weren't efficient at race pace. Does this mean you should do 600's at 800 goal pace all year? No. It does mean though you should be doing 80-150's at your 800 goal pace pretty regularly throughout the year. Strides 2-3 days per week throughout the fall at 800 race pace before doing your XC workout is a way to get it done. A Saturday not spent running an XC race should be used to run some 80-100 at 800 pace. When you get close to outdoors, you do longer and longer reps. So maybe in December you're doing 16 x 100 at 800 pace with 300 jog. Then in January, you're doing 10 x 150 at 800 pace, then in Feb it's 8 x 200, March is 5 x 300, April is 4 x 400, May is 3 x 500. June is 2-3 x 600. But it's been a mistake for me to start with 800 or 1500 pace workouts cold turkey in April and expect significant results come May.

So what's all the above mean? Simple, do the 4 main types of training and address them each consistently. Do longer reps, do tempo runs and long runs and double days and also have fun doing the real fast stuff - just make it fast and relaxed. Finally, don't forget you're an 800 runner, so practice that pace alot. Running 800 pace to you should be like taking a dump, natural and often. Be affraid of no workout. Get a "bring it on" attitude. Become a true competitive distance runner because this is what all top distance runners do regardless of choosen event, they hammer with any athlete in any event - sprinter, 5k guy, marathoner, doesn't matter. They like the challenge of beating a marathoner on the weekend long run or a sprinter on their last 300 repeat of the day or the 5k guy in his last mile rep.

Now regarding the 400 speed aspect of the question. I would read up on stuff from Clyde Hart. I mean his 400 guys are fairly decent. To paraphrase, his program looks a lot like this:

Fall: Workouts primarily at 3k pace/1500 pace work 5 days per week.

Jan/Feb: Work at 800/1500 pace

March/April: Work at 800, some 400 pace

May/June: Work at 400/800 pace

Early Summer: Work at 400 pace or better.

Now does this mean they don't do full on speed stuff? No, it just means they do things like relaxed 30's at 90% effort, same as what most mid-distance runners do in the fall to address overall speed. I get the impression most distance guys think it's super fast work all year to develop top end speed and that's not really true. It's fast yes, but it's fast and controlled and relaxed with super form and not very long reps for the most part. Oh yeah, they take plenty of recovery too which distance runners have a hard time doing. Now if you look at the Baylor program in depth, even these 200/400 meter runners work on VO2max development in the fall, they work on anaerobic conditioning and they do aerobic conditioning in addition to their fast stuff BUT their real fast stuff is stuff taking 10 seconds or less.

You gotta do it all and do it consistently and do more of it each year and you gotta want to do it, really really want to do it for one reason alone - to race fast and beat the living crap out of people who have no business loosing to you. It starts and ends with desire. No short cuts and little paralysis of analysis. There's a well worn path to success, that's based on the following:

1. Desire

2. Right physio make-up (good parents)

3. A body that responds to training favorably

4. A well designed program

5. Desire

Time to get to serious work if you're looking to race well come May.

Best of luck, hope the above helps.

Joe

8hun wrote:

Great discussion so far.

But I still don't buy into the need for long miles and long intervals. To build up the ability to run 5x400 at race pace compared to 3x400 at pace one doesn't need to build an aerobic capacity through long runs/long intervals. Increasing the number of 400s gradually while running low milage could also be achieved. Once an athlete feels comfortable running 3 @ pace additional intervals could be added on.

An individual's training is a balancing act. If you spend too much time running high milage and longer intervals you'll take away from the time spent on quality pace interval training sessions.

Why? 800m Endurance will be achieved best by increasing aerobic components and organelles -- and applying necessary speed endurance work to reduce the buildup of lactate at 800m speed.

The guys who make the most of the speed (Coe 46.5/1:41.7, Cram 48/1:42.8, Kipketer 46/1:41.1, etc.) train as that. Renato made very good observations in that on the all time lists, Juanterena is the highest 400/800 runner, no. 42nd in the 800m. Whereas Coe is no. 2, Cram no. 16 and Baala no. 24.

Joe, you explained what every runner has to understand :

a) DOESN'T EXIST ANY TYPE OF TRAINING LIMITING QUALITIES.

You lose some quality, or are not able to increase it, ONLY WHEN YOU DON'T TRAIN THAT QUALITY. It means that you lose speed not because you run long distance, BUT BECAUSE YOU DON'T TRAIN SPEED. At the same time, you become less resistant not because you do speed workouts, BUT BECAUSE YOU FORGET ENDURANCE.

b) The elements of training are always present in a good training-schedule. What must change is their percentage and their frequency. So, during the FUNDAMENTAL PERIOD you must work for increasing your qualities : general resistance, strenght, rapidity, flexibility, cohordination. You must not use SPEED, but you have to prepare your speed. For example, you use circuit with weights or special works uphill, having clear in your mind what the goal is. If I go climbing 400m, making, without interruption, 60m sprint at max. speed + 40m bounding + 60m sprint + 40m skipping + 60m sprint + 40m heels to buttocks very fast + 100m sprint, and at the top 10 times squat-jumps pushing harder is possible, I use a work for increasing strenght endurance, reaching a very high level of lactate, improving "stamina". THIS IS A BASIC TRAINING, but is of very high intensity. When I put speed in my training (f.e., 15x100m with 30/40 sec of recovery), I have more BASIC QUALITIES for improving this specificism.

About running, every speed slower than 80% of the speed of the race is NOT SPECIFIC. So, about 800m training, if we want to refer to 100m speed, these are the parameters :

PURE SPEED (over 110 %)

SPECIFIC SPEED (110 - 90 %)

SPECIAL SPEED (90 - 80 %)

BASIC SPEED (80 - 65 %)

GENERAL SPEED (65 - 50 %)

REGENERATION (under 50 %)

For an athlete able running 1:44 (13.0 every 100m), it means :

Faster then 11.7 = SPEED

11.7 >< 14.3 = SPECIFIC SPEED

14.3 >< 16.3 = SPECIAL SPEED

16.3 >< 20.0 = BASIC SPEED

20.0 >< 26.0 = GENERAL SPEED

Slower than 26.0 = REGENERATION

Of course, for evey speed we can use different distances :

SPEED : 60-200m (global volume 1500/2000m)

SPECIFIC SPEED : 200-1000m (global volume 2000/4000m)

SPECIAL SPEED : 400-2000m (global volume 3000/6000m)

BASIC SPEED : 800-6000m (global volume 5000/10000m)

GENERAL SPEED : 5000-12000m (global volume 7-12 km)

REGENERATION : What you feel better for you.

This fact can happen along all the season. We must modulate speed, lenght of intervals, global volume, duration of recovery, that can change according to different period of preparation.

One good principle is that MORE QUALITY THERE IS (f.e., 3-4 competitions very close), MORE REGENERATION WE NEED.

You must learn running very slow for running very fast.

The system for increasing SPECIFIC ENDURANCE is not only to increase the speed, but essentially to reduce recovery. So, we can adapt the membranes of our cells to increase their permeability, in order to eliminate lactate in shorter time.

I want to remember a type of work of Juantorena, that really never ran many km :

3 times 1200m with 6x150 in 18.5 recovery 50m in 13.0, with final time of 3:09 about (6 min recovery).

This one was a typical example of Anaerobic Work, that was good for increasing Aerobic Capacity, and not speed.

After this type of work, Juantorena was able to improve also in 400m, without never using speed so high like in the past (when he was only a 400m runner).

Trackhead leaves out the drug regimen a guy like Bungei is on. How else do you go from bedridden with Pneumonia to 1:42 in 14 days? Then again, he was probably hiding out, and pneumonia was the 'story'.

what kind of 400m speed does one need to break 2:00?

How fast can one go in the 800ms running 52-53 seconds in the 400ms? and the 1500ms?

AndreMAgnus wrote:

what kind of 400m speed does one need to break 2:00?

How fast can one go in the 800ms running 52-53 seconds in the 400ms? and the 1500ms?

Nicholas Kemboi cannot break 51s for 400m.

trackhead wrote:

Nicholas Kemboi cannot break 51s for 400m.

B.S.

If you can't break 50, you will not break 1:48. Listing old pr's, or lies, doesn't cut it.

hunh?,

Bungei's 1:42 performance this season has already been well defended on this board. There's a recap at the link below.

These are current PRs.

What you speedsters who don't want to run "distance" don't realize is that 60 miles per week is NOT high mileage. Not even close. Reciting one line from Coe saying slow running makes slow runners does not prove a damn thing. It's not like strength 800 meter runners gallowalk in training.

joel wrote:

hunh?,

Bungei's 1:42 performance this season has already been well defended on this board. There's a recap at the link below.

Yep, like hunh? said, something's fishy. Read the discussion.

trackhead wrote:

These are current PRs.

As honest as Wottle's 51 when he ran 1:44? Or Cram's 49.7 when he ran 1:42? Old PR's can still be a PR. Speedster is correct.

Not so fast wrote:

trackhead wrote:

These are current PRs.

As honest as Wottle's 51 when he ran 1:44? Or Cram's 49.7 when he ran 1:42? Old PR's can still be a PR. Speedster is correct.

You're probably right. Cram's PR was from his prep days, so was Wottle's. This has been true for many guys who have been listed as having no speed. It's like listing Snell's PR at 400 as 49+. If he had trained for the 400, he was probably a 47 runner. Same for any World Class 800 guy - or 1500 guy these days. The guys with no speed just hate to admit it, but as Coe said, you can't hide from speed in the 800 or 1500.

Joe,

I read your post from a long time ago about that set of 1500m progressive workouts (4 x 2 x 400 --> 8 x 400m equal rest --> 5-6 x 600 --> 4 x 800m) and I was thinking about using it, but I was wondering if you could tell me how you know when to progress on to the next workout.

thanks a lot

e-

Let's bring it out.

From the earlier thread:

When I begin to train a Kenyan athlete, of sure, if he's talented, he's already able running 400m in 53/54 sec, while is yet 16 years old. We have many Kenyans not able running fast among Marathon runners. Many of them, able running 2:07 - 2:10, are not able running under 55 secs in 400m. But you have to think that your max. speed is not connected with your FINAL SPEED. An example, not from a Kenyan. In the past, Italian Alberto Cova was considered unbeatleble in final lap, winning European Ch. '82, World Ch. '83, Olympic Games '84 and Europe Cup '85 (5000 and 10000) with his terrible final kick. In Helsinki '83, he finished with 53.2 last lap. I and his coach Giorgio Rondelli were curious to see his real speed, so, two weeks after WCH, he ran for fun 400m during a local meeting. HE RAN 52.8, almost the same time of his last lap !So, for example, I'm sure that Stephen Cherono and Nicholas Kemboi are not able running under 50.0, and I think that also Gebre and Bekele are not able running under 50.0. The final sprint in 10000 and also 5000m IS A SPRINT OF AEROBIC RUNNERS, not a sprint OF FAST RUNNERS. If you are an athlete able running 3000m in 8'30" (so, not very good) and you run a 3000m in 10' with Maurice Greene, and then you go for a full final lap free, YOU WIN, NOT MAURICE GREENE. So, the real problem is YOUR ANAEROBIC THRESHOLD LEVEL. The best African runners have a AnT of about 23km per hour, so they are able running under 2'45" per km in Steady-State. It means that, when they run in 28', THEY DON'T USE THEIR ANAEROBIC ENGIN, so when they decide to sprint THEIR SITUATION IS THE SAME OF BEFORE RUNNING.Different problem is to develop their strenght and muscular power. So, we work very much in that direction, using special Circuits uphill (lasting from 1:30 to 6 min), and expecially we use very much work of short sprints climbing, lasting from 10 to 20 secs (depending on the gradient), for developing SPECIFIC STRENGHT and RECRUITING THE MOST PART OF FIBRES, what normally long runners are not able to do.So, I can say that 30 % of mileage is for regenerating (very slow, for making the lactate lower), 30 % is for building base (long run at moderate-medium pace), 20-25 % is around the Race Pace, with the goal of improving endurance (so is not important running faster, but running longer : if you go for 20 x 400m with 1 min recovery, your development is 20 x 500m then 20 x 600m or 20 x 400m with only more 30 secs of recovery, at the same speed), 5-10 % is for developing speed (all faster of 10% in relation of race pace is speed), and 5% is for strenght endurance.RUNNING MIDDLE DISTANCE IS A MATTER OF SPECIFIC ENDURANCE, NOT OF SPEED, but we must understand what endurance means. Very long and slow run is not endurance, is general resistance, good for a beginner, not for a top runner. In every event, final goal is RUNNING LONGER AND FASTER, not only longer and slow, or short and faster.

and...

With top runners, the real problem is the capacity of running close their max. speed for long time. So, we can think that a specialist of 10000m of top level can have a correlation of 88-90% between his capacity of specific endurance and his performance (considering 400m and 1500m). This means that for running at 60.0 pace (3:45) is enough a speed of 52.8, for running 58.0 pace (3:37.5) is enough a speed of 51.0/51.5, and for running at 56.0 pace (3:30) can be enough a speed of 49.4 / 50.0. Of course, this consideration has not value when we talk about REAL SPECIALISTS OF 1500m, not having so much long endurance.

he's got the watch on them. how current do you want it?

Yeah, Dave Juiliano. Not as fast as he used to be, from the results I've seen. Kind of a shame. At our conference meet two years ago he won the steeple, 800 and 1500, and was 2nd in the 5k.

Thanks Renato and everyone contributing to this discussion.

I'm waiting to hear about cortisol and lactate.

Renato- do you coach Longo?