Testing Distance Runners..... Bekele

That is briliant stuff, why don't they use this more in the world of sports. This way there would be no way an athlete could go hide, dope and train then pop up at an event and piss clean. If they use this in cycling there would be no way you could cheat unless there was a way certain drugs are not detectible in the hair.

Ok, then why don't you point out some of those holes instead of just declaring that they are there. And how did I "further muddy the waters" ?? You know, it is generally a good habit to back up one's criticisms with some examples, that would be a start.

I never said that. I do think it is awfully convenient to say the all the WR's and those that are on the top 10 all-time lists for distance events are cheats when, lo and behold, THEY ARE ALL AFRICANS. And it also interesting to see some of those same cynics hem and haw when Ryan Hall began to produce results just about as good as the best africans. Suddenly 2:05 is possible without drugs, when before he became capable of that time, one HAD to be on drugs to achieve it. Very convenient change of heart.

Oh, and I think I will play your game and say that your Barry Bonds analogy is extremely weak. I don't think I will bother to tell you why, I will just declare it a crappy analogy.

Um, great, there you go again. How about picking out a few of those "myriad" of explanations and sharing them with us, on why there has been non-progression in non-african times other than those that I pointed out.

Whoops, I think we might, just might have an actual point that attempts to show what I left out of my previous argument! Whoopee! So your point is: Dave Moorcroft, Steve Cram, Seb Coe, Arturo Barrios, and Steve Jones (the athletes I pointed to as being nearly the pinnacle of non-african performance, and that achieved their times over 20 years ago) were all on steroids, but today's white runners don't take steroids, and steroids are better for distance runners than EPO, so........ that's why those guys of the '80's were better than 99.999999% of top distance runners to follow them, because they were on roids?? Is that your point (it's really difficult to discern one way or another)? Well if it is, I think it is weak one.

Your post was very eloquent, but to my mind, you didn't point out any holes in my argument. And I am still waiting to hear from "pro cyclist" on how he explains the stagnation of non-african times if drugs are so powerful and so prevalent in the distance runners of the last 20 years (and you didn't answer the question either, except to say that there were a million reasons other than the few I listed which can explain the stagnation while barely pointing out one). My point was simply that drugs have likely had less impact on men's distance wr's than many might suppose. Non-africans have not improved, and africans have. And Africans have, mainly, because they have greatly increased their mass participation in the sport over these last 20 years, and are now nearly reaching the pinnacle of their collective ability , while non-africans, for the most part, reached this pinnacle sooner.

dumb Dems wrote:

Who knows, a potential gold medalist at 1500 meters may be riding the bench somewhere right now, but he won't quit his dead end sport for whatever reason.

.

For every one of those "potential gold medalists" that you can find "riding the bench" (and I bet there are actually none), you will find 10 in east africa that didn't become gold medalists because they died or suffered from malnutrition, AIDS, Malaria, and many other diseases our country is not very susceptible to. And many others are not allowed by their parents to pursue something like running because they need to work 12 hour days on the family farm (Geb's dad almost prevented him from running).

Many people way over-romanticize the environment of East Africa as being the perfect place to grow up to become a great runner and bemoan the poor USA with all its other sports stealing away our great distance runners. East Africa might be a great place to run once you survive the extreme poverty and are given a chance to compete, but before that....... it's a crapshoot on whether you will even make it to adulthood. Who knows how many potential Gebs or Kenny B's died young in East Africa because of the poverty and related misfortunes? Certainly a lot more than those that got "lost" playing baseball in the US.

Yes, you know what you were doing during those years and I think I know what you weren't doing. Speaking of knowing, you seem to "know" about who was on drugs, but fail to mention how you "know" this information. You're free and easy with the accusations and we're supposed to believe you because you claim to have ridden for a 3rd tier Belgian team whose name you can't spell. I don't know anyone who cannot spell the name of the company they worked for.

Don't forget all of the potential American medalists who don't make it because they eat at McDonald's every day and now they are obese. There are probably more of them than there are dead Africans. Imagine how strong your circulatory system needs to be to get oxygen to all of your 400 lbs. of lard. When gas prices get too high for them to drive across the street for a burger and they have to walk we are in for a distance revolution. Americans will be lean and muscular and records will drop like flies in a bug zapper. Give it 10 years.

i know its not middle distance...but the sport is rife with drug assisted programmes..If these stories continue to break, then there are going to be lots of worried athletes and lots of medals being taken off them.

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

How about picking out a few of those "myriad" of explanations and sharing them with us, on why there has been non-progression in non-african times other than those that I pointed out.

Here's the scenario:

Either Africans are naturally better at distance running, or they're on drugs.

That presents a huge problem for politically correct folk (like I suspect sir Lance-alot is), because "everyone is equal etc" but also "Africans would never take drugs".

Therefore they suggest that Africans just train harder, they want it more etc. Any non-African who has been anywhere near elite/national/world class can tell you that this is complete rubbish.

How about this: A talented non-African generally has 3 options/possibilities.

1) Quits running after school/college/early international career because they realise that they won't make it to the top without drugs/being African. Goes and gets a career and a family.

2) Continues running but constantly gets injured because they're trying to do the training that drugged runners/Africans do, to run the times that drugged runners/Africans run. Career ended by injury, goes and gets a career and a family.

3) Takes drugs

So either way the decline/stagnation in non-African performances is because of Africans - whether they're on drugs or just genetically better. Of course there are always exceptions - Mottram, Kennedy (assuming they're clean. And they're still a level below the very best).

In contrast, an African has 2 choices:

1)Do whatever it takes to make a career as a runner.

2)Live in poverty

It is clear that the motivation for Africans to take drugs is far greater. Whether they do, or if they are just genetically gifted...we may never know.

Question: If you are an average Joe Kenyan 28.30 10k runner who's maxed out your natural ability coming 50th at Kenya nationals do you take drugs so you can run 27 and make a crap load of money, or do you quit running and live in poverty?

DistanceDude wrote:

Look at who the Africans brought in to setup their training regimen.

That should say something to you.

Also just because you don't get popped after a race does not mean that that person did not use leading up to the race and made sure that they stopped in time to let things clear if they were to get tested.

Ethiopian athletes are also randomly tested in there own country by foreign authorities. I am not sure if it is the IAAF or WADA.

Nice try...but no top Ethiopian athlete has tested positive and so most of what you say is just speculation.

there is no outer competiton testing in the whole of africa...WADA testing is shit...

I think you can attribute the stagnation of Non-African times to the society that non-africans live in. What 14 year old Ethiopian boy has a playstation and sits on his arse for 6 hours a day, I would bet very few. In the US these kids can make careers out of "gaming". Also what African have you seen in the Winter X or Summer X games doing BMX freestyle or riding a half-pipe.. NONE. Non-Africans have alot more options to participate in and running and cycling are very hard sports and I think the non-Africans are lazy. And once again Arch Stanton I'm sure you have never left out a letter in anything you have every typed. Next time you are in Belgium I will give you my address and we can go for a spin and I can relive my glory days whooping your ass around Izegem.

Pro Cyclist wrote:

I think you can attribute the stagnation of Non-African times to the society that non-africans live in. What 14 year old Ethiopian boy has a playstation and sits on his arse for 6 hours a day, I would bet very few. In the US these kids can make careers out of "gaming". Also what African have you seen in the Winter X or Summer X games doing BMX freestyle or riding a half-pipe.. NONE. Non-Africans have alot more options to participate in and running and cycling are very hard sports and I think the non-Africans are lazy. .

Fine, easy living often produces lazy people, that is true, BUT....you completely ignore my points about all the hazards associated with growing up in East Africa. It's not an environment with 100% positives and no negatives as far as producing great athletes. You people waaay over-romanticize the notion of growing up in poverty, with ideas like: if I could have only been born dirt poor, in a war-torn country full of strife and crime, rampant with disease, where I am forced by family to work 12 hour days on the farm, THEN I could have been world-class! Sorry man, but that's hogwash. And it completely ignores the fact that countless, countless top athletes have come from solidly middle class backgrounds. Poverty is a two-way street, don't over-romanticize it.

(and sorry man, prior to playstations and the X-games, America still didn't produce anyone on the level of Geb or Bekele. And oh yeah, Tergat and or Kipketer said they walked nice and slow a few blocks to their good school each day, ie, the myth that the reason that all the best africans are so great is because they ran to school every day isn't true. Some did, some didn't. That wasn't their X factor. Talent was. Same with everyone else. They just have more runners with shitloads of it).

I don't get your point of hazzards of where you grow up not leading you to take dope to excell in a sport that will take you our of the situation. I see it 100% opposite, they want out, they see running as their ticket, they have some talent without dope and with dope they are golden. You have to realize they need 1.5 good years on the road scene in the US to be set for a long time.

Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

I wouldn't say I was criticizing your anecdotal observations rather I was merely pointing out that when you make sweeping generalizations without facts that they muddy the water as opposed to making it clearer.

I will admit that I didn't back up my observations of your tripe because, number 1 – I don’t know what the answer is either and number 2 - it is painfully obvious that you do not offer any "point" or "support" or "evidence" or “position” other then these guys are really, really good. I guess the answer is that I require a little more factual evidence before I embrace a mantra.

For your convenience I will provide you with an example: "...drugs have likely had less impact on men's distance wr's than many might suppose." This statement comes from your observation that Africans are just now rising to some sort of physiological pinnacle of whatever they are doing and Europeans have peaked or some sort of crazy shit like that. Even someone as single minded as you have to see that this is pure conjecture not based on anything other than your gut and the top 10 times. I can’t vouch for your gut nor can I vouch for top 10 times and neither can you (well maybe you can vouch for your gut, it is your gut after all). Because your position flies in the face of an ever expanding drug culture you would think that you would need a bit more proof before you start calling everybody out but I’m guessing that’s not your style…

Also, in other posts you harangue on and on about poverty having a detrimental impact on running. This is, more likely than not, rubbish. It would have a detrimental impact on Ethiopia’s national teams in; swimming, American style football, soccer, equestrian events, golf, etc. But it would definitely not have a detrimental impact on distance running. C’mon LA, admit it, you’re just a blow hard out looking for a fight, well you’ve come to the right place…

Why is the level of 100m-800m for women significantly lower

today than 20 years ago? No one is close to flojo or the

400m record by Marita Koch (DDR).

pro cyclists....you are saying all of the east african success to not having playsations!!! i think jos hermans might have something to say about that...i think drug assisted programmes may have slightly more to do with it...

i am not doubting the east africans are extremely talented but since komen the world records have decreased dis-proportionatelty...all these east africans are not living in africa thay are in usa or uk...so they are living in the same culture as the youths you talking about

It's quite funny that USADA cut down the number of tests they do in the fourth quarter of the year. The time of year that Conte told them that most guys are going through the most vigourous doping procedures.

To be fair though, at least they're doing tests.

Could you imagine the Ethiopian federation catching one of their own athletes? Hilarious stuff.

Procyclist - google 'jeronimo bravo' and 'running economy' , read what you unearth and then post back if it offers any clues as to why male long distance WRs have evolved as they have in last 15 years.

As to the poster who suggested that seeing some issues in T+F as different from pro cycling is 'delusional' (sic) - well for sure they are both hard endurance sports where some people cheat to earn more money from them but I don;t think we need delve too deep to learn that the two sports aren't really exactly the same in all aspects.

You are all over the place so much with your comments, they are hard to even follow at this point. I am a "blow hard" because I pointed out COLD HARD FACTS of stagnation of non-african times and simply came to the conclusion that drugs have not had as big an impact on the all-time lists as many think??? Yeah, what a crazed lunatic I am! And you said I am "speculating" ? No kidding, that's all we have at this point (as you yourself have said), and I am offering my competing speculations and theories (based on the trends of times run by non-africans during the "drug era")

What is so wrong with my conclusion?? (again, I never said it was perfect, but it is far from absurd). Let's revisit it: If the drugs of the past 20 years (EPO , HGH, new designer steroids, most of which were not available or readily used in the mid 80's) are so powerful, and used by all the top athletes (as Pro Cyclist suggests, and so many others like seem to assume to be true), then WHY haven't performances/times of runners from ALL areas of the globe improved more?? Even if less top non-african runners are competing today than the 80's, or they are sightly less motivated, there still should several dozen from around the globe that are hugely talented, and using the drugs (according to Pro Cyclists' arguments).

And if the drugs are so incredibly powerful and using them chops 10's or 20's of seconds off of one's 5k and 10k times, there should be plenty more non-africans challenging the best non-african times of 20-25 years ago. But there simply isn't. Something is wrong with Pro Cyclists' and others' drug theory. I am the one poking holes in theories, not the other way around. (and in fact, everyone likes to point to the fact that having faster times and races pulls all competitors to faster times. This work in two ways: having mental barriers broken down by top athletes allows all athletes to believe they can run a faster time, and having lots of competition pulls everyone along also bringing down everyone's times. So the super-fast african times of the last 15 years should have helped pull non-african times way down. But again, it hasn't happened.)

Now my conclusion doesn't mean that many top non-africans are not taking drugs, it just means: apparently talent (yes, I am pre-supposing that at least a couple of the following runners were clean: Coe, Cram, Moorcroft, Jones, Barrios) is actually more powerful than the best drugs, and that a 13:15 guy on EPO, might only become a 13:08 guy. Of course I don't know if that is true, but I do know the "ever expanding drug culture" you speak of has not brought down the times of athletes of all races and nations like one would suspect. It has mainly been east africa that has seen the big drop in times, and one could offer many, many (a "myriad" if you will) other reasons to explain that huge drop (periods of less drought and famine and more peace in their countries, with the inclusion of prize money in athletics a greater motivation period to compete, and greatly increased and focused national program to recruit runners, all resulting a greatly increased participation of east african athletes in events around the globe).

But all you can offer back is to tell me I'm full of shit, and yeah, we just don't know. Wow, well-thought out stuff, Jefe.

Jefe in the CO wrote:

Also, in other posts you harangue on and on about poverty having a detrimental impact on running. This is, more likely than not, rubbish. It would have a detrimental impact on Ethiopia’s national teams in; swimming, American style football, soccer, equestrian events, golf, etc. But it would definitely not have a detrimental impact on distance running. C’mon LA, admit it, you’re just a blow hard out looking for a fight, well you’ve come to the right place…

I see you fit in as many attempted insults as possible into that one paragraph, problem is, you missed the point (again). "Harangue".."rubbish"...? Hardly. All I did was point out that poverty is 2-way street, and simpletons like you romanticize it as the perfect environment to grow up in to become a runner. Sure, it makes you tough and motivated, but (I guess I have to repeat it for the 10th time since you continue to ignore it), if poverty were such a key ingredient necessary to producing a great runner, than how do you explain the countless, countless number of great runners that grew up in middle-class to well-off households?? Oh, you can't. And if all the riches of the west, and the techno-gadgets (like hyper-G treadmills and altitude tents, and expensive nutrition) offer nothing to runners, and are only detriments, people like Paula Radcliffe, the Gouchers, Ritz, and many others wouldn't produce any good results at al. But they do. And how on earth did someone like wejo, born into wealth and not much talent (according to him), find the motivation to run a 28 minute 10k?? One doesn't need poverty to have inner drive to succeed, one is born with it for finds it. Al Salazar wasn't poor, but he drove himself harder than just about anyone.

And you don't see ANY negatives in having an extremely impoverished, disease-ridden environment for producing good athletes? NONE??? Wow. You know, dying young or being mal-nourished for your developing years might just put a slight kink in your athletic dreams, don't you think?? Do you think having an organized team with a paid coach, or maybe a track to run one once in a blue moon might be even a little nit nice to have? no help at all?? I know running is a simple sport, but c'mon.

Bottom line: clearly there is some middle ground for a perfect environment for producing great runners where the people are poor enough to want to push themselves hard in their sport to succeed, but aren't so poor that they are at a risk of starving to death, or contracting a ton of different diseases, or have to work on the family farm all day instead of work on their sport. I don't think East Africa is that perfect environment, it certainly contains some negatives some people (like you) are blowing past in your rush to claim that 'if the west was only poorer, and had no x-boxes, and less pro sports to take away our future gold medalists, WE TOO would produce 26:20 10k runners!' THAT is the only thing that is rubbish.