Interesting post wrote:
When was YOUR last 2:15 by the way?
yeah, because whether the USA is really on its way back to the top of the marathoning world, or not, depends on whether or not I have done a 2:15 before. Excellent reasoning.
( I guess I shouldn't say that USA basketball has not been as dominant vs the rest of the world in the last 20 years compared to the previous 20 years, because, you know, I never made an Olympic basketball team either. Again, you're right, I'm wrong)
His parents were in W.G. because his dad was in the army, posted to Germany. It was only the timing in terms of the rotation that had him there. He basically grew up in the US despite the Germany birth.
However, the winning time was an Olympic trials record.
For whatever it's worth, on an extremely hard course:
"Deepest OMT top 10 since 1980.
Most sub-2:20 performances (39) at the Trials since 1980.
25 personal records set by:
Dathan Ritzenhein, 2:11:07
Jason Lehmkuhle, 2:12:54
Nathaniel Jenkins, 2:14:56
Josh Rohatinsky, 2:15:22, debut
Jason Hartmann, 2:15:27
Matt Gonzales, 2:16:14, debut
Fasil Bizuneh, 2:16:47
James Carney, 2:16:54
Steve Sundell, 2:16:54
Chris Raabe, 2:17:01
Matt Pelletier, 2:17:17
Joe Driscoll, 2:18:22
John Mentzer, 2:18:23
Allen Wagner, 2:18:25
Pat Rizzo, 2:18:30
Sergio Reyes, 2:18:31
Mikhail Sayenko, 2:18:35
Donovan Fellows, 2:18:45
Macharia Yuot, 2:18:56
Eric Post, 2:19:25
Matt Folk, 2:19:47
Michael Cox, 2:20:12
Greg Costello, 2:20:28
J.T. Service, 2:21:12
Adam Tribble, 2:21:21"
Thanks, Monty, that's exactly what I was looking for--I had seen that Yuot PR'd and wondered who else had sone so.
This, on a course where I believed the only PR's would be for first-timers. Yes, I'm impressed.
I noticed you didn't answer my question. Whatever.
Happy Armistice Day to you.
Shorter was born in Germany. He is no different than Meb.
Did anyone see Lagat this summer at the WC's?
He was so happy to win the 15/5 for his country. I'd rather him win than somone else from this country that probably would not be as grateful.
Shorter's parents were US citizens. That's different than Meb.
Abdi, Meb and KK are citizens. I am absolutely not concerned with individuals who immigrate to this country, obtain their citizenship legally, then represent the USA at sporting events. They earned it. Just take a peek at the questions on the INS citizenship questions at this site -
http://usgovinfo.about.com/blinstst.htm
HOWEVER, I am concerned with those who were BORN here, RAISED here, SCHOOLED here and then can do no better than this....
"Only 7 percent of those surveyed could name the Nation's first four Presidents in order: George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. When asked specifically about Thomas Jefferson, only 30 percent knew that he was our Nation's third President. However, slightly more than half of Americans, 57%, knew that Thomas Jefferson was the main author of the Declaration of Independence, the Presidential $1 Coin Survey revealed."
That, my friends, is scary.
exactly wrote:
Seven Kenyans ran sub-2.08 in Amsterdam Marathon...
And all Kenyans will bomb in Beijing - as usual.
Again, whatever it's worth, make the supposition, a conservative one I believe, that a flat course is worth two minutes. Applying that to the actual results, a flat course would have yielded: the top ten under 2:13:28; the top twenty under 2:15:59.
present wrote:
Thanks, Monty, that's exactly what I was looking for--I had seen that Yuot PR'd and wondered who else had sone so.
This, on a course where I believed the only PR's would be for first-timers. Yes, I'm impressed.
Montesquieu wrote:
Again, whatever it's worth, make the supposition, a conservative one I believe, that a flat course is worth two minutes.
[/quote]Where do you get two minutes from? And why is that a conservative estimate? What's a liberal estimate? Four minutes? Do you think Ryan Hall could've run a world record on Saturday if he didn't start slowly and pump his arms a lot at the end?
I just looked up sub-2:46 times in the 1983 NYC Marathon. This year there were about 215. In 1983, there were over 600.
LES TURNER M35 661 511 ON CANADA 629 599 253 2:46:00 6:20
KEVIN MERCURIO M29 1756 0 NY 630 600 277 2:46:00 6:20
DES AUSTIN M38 208 549 . ENGLAND 631 601 254 2:46:00
There was unbelievable depth and many, many sub 2:20 (many of them americans).
[quote]brains or guts wrote:
... sub 2:08 is common place now...quote]
Jesus H. Christ
Culpepper thinks there's a 2-3 minute difference between the Trials course and a flat course. It is a common understanding the the NYC Marathon course is 2 minutes slower than Chicago--witness, for example, the course record at NY compared to Chicago, what Lel just ran, what Tergat has run there, etc, etc. The Trials course is harder than the NYC course--ask anyone who has run races in the park and the NYC marathon. Since the WR is under 2:05 and Hall's time on a flat course is worth 2:06:30-2:07, even if he went all out, I don't think he could have gotten the record, but I do think he could have run somewhere in the middle to high 2:05s. Sell who witnessed Hall's effort up close, shall we say, said Hall is one of the three best guys in the world--and he said this on the basis of the 2:09 in the Trials. That says something about the difficulty of the course and the quality of the time.
Where do you get two minutes from? And why is that a conservative estimate? What's a liberal estimate? Four minutes? Do you think Ryan Hall could've run a world record on Saturday if he didn't start slowly and pump his arms a lot at the end?[/quote]not a bad race wrote:
Montesquieu wrote:Again, whatever it's worth, make the supposition, a conservative one I believe, that a flat course is worth two minutes.
On a side-note, I didn't know Sell ran 4:28/10:06 in high school...I know it's not national level, but 4:28 is pretty solid. I was under the impression that he was slower than that...
Hall ran 2:09:04
he pumped his fists at the end and slowed down the last 50- worth 2:08:59 at the very least.
the first mile was slow, a 5:30. He easily could have handled a 5:00 and still run the way he did.
You're down to 2:08:29 on THAT course.
2 Minutes slower easy, which is on the low end of what we've been told is 2:06:29.
Thats without a rabbiting crew.
Hall will be running 2:04 in no time. He's that good in the Marathon. And judging by his youth, he could probably take another 2-3 minutes off over the next decade. He may be the first man to break 2 hours. Maybe. He has the speed.
Funny thing too, Ritz is only a few minutes behind him and will probably be a 2:04 man in his career as well. And Sell is right behind that. These 3 guys can change the Marathon and leave a huge impact on the event and the sport if they decide too.
let's not get carried away. i ran nyc and i ran grete's 1/2 last month (2 park loops (including Harlem Hills, which the Trials skipped) + 1 mile) and I can say that the trials course was much harder. however, we cannot be handing hall a 2:04. I will grant sub 2:07 at london next year. and sub 2:06 is a possibility in the next couple years. but ritz at 2:04?? he ran 2:11 and so did sell. ritz has room for improvement at this distance still, but he may top out close to 2:08. that would make him better than kempainen, abdi, meb, salazar, etc. which is pretty damn good. but let's not automatically grant a 27:35 10k runner the level of a 26:20 (geb) or 26:30(? tergat) 10k runner in the marathon.
Negative Splitz wrote:
On a side-note, I didn't know Sell ran 4:28/10:06 in high school...I know it's not national level, but 4:28 is pretty solid. I was under the impression that he was slower than that...
Please, I had walk-on teammates in college who ran 4:20 in HS.
wjw0006 wrote:
Shorter was born in Germany. He is no different than Meb.
Shorter was born an American citizen, Meb was not.