Some more information about kenyan athletes

Borzakovskiy is a scary natural talent. Bungei is dope filled smiling liar. Pneumonia, then 10 days later runs 1:42. Sure. No wonder Guerni and Borzo are so deflated. Compete clean, at least in Borzo's case, and you can be at the top level, but be careful. A rested, drug thriving cheat can motor on by.

Sure, science is allowing athletes to compete longer, as are drugs in the case of sprinters. You bring up Larrabee. He kept improving because he didn't really allow himself to get out of shape. He was one of the few sprinters back then who trained year round. Most guys let themselves go for a few months at a time, in the case of sprinters.

Yes, E. Africa may have a high number of talented individuals, but unfortunately they also have a higher number of individuals with the opportunity to be drug cheats. As the American federation has been unmasked as having run blocker for cheating sprinters for decades, the actions of Kenyan officials after Lagat was caught, and their holding some athletes out as sick, showed them to be doing the same, in light of post WC performances by these sick athletes. The improvement of other athletes, such as 2 min in a 10k, or Kipchoge's remarkable improvements after working with the always on the up and up Jos Hermens and his crew of cheats makes one wish a huge 'incident' would occur to wreck the sport, and give distance running a chance to "start all over again."

Of course, everybody can have his opinion, and I cannot change the manias of many people. But I want to ask to all the posters speaking about africans : what type of experience you have about Kenya ? What do you know about kenyan life, about the Country, about their traditions ? How many times were you in Kenya ? Why are you so sure about thing that you don't know ? Of course, is very easy to explain your failure with the doping of other people, but at least the first having disadvantages are you. If you are not interested in athletics, let your mind free from these problems and go for some picnic, or to fish on a lake (so are more tranquil). If you are interested, try to think of WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO, not of other have not to do. Your mind is not clear, and you are not clear. This is your limit. I invite all runners that next year want to have holidays for running to come to Switzerland with my group, training with them and, if is possible, living with them. And, about drugs, don't forget that only in US is possible to buy many kinds of doping directly in supermarket, of sure not in Kenya and neither in Italy. Look at your Country, and change your mentality.

Renato Canova wrote:

And, about drugs, don't forget that only in US is possible to buy many kinds of doping directly in supermarket, of sure not in Kenya and neither in Italy. Look at your Country, and change your mentality.

Pure b.s.. It's much easier to buy drugs outside of the US. In the third world, there's very little control at all. Who cares about "your group"? If you're doping guys, you're not going to allow outsiders to see it. Most of the doping goes on when the athletes are in Africa anyway, in order to avoid testing. Catch them off guard, and then you can nab people. Chepchumba? Her doctor screwed up. Lagat? Tested two weeks earlier than he and officials expected. Boom. Kenyan officials immediately announce several athletes will be out due to various illnesses. Of course, the athletes recovered in record time from their maladies.

There's honest, clean runners out there. But most of the top Africans don't qualify under that banner. Sorry.

How many sick minds there are here ! The difference between you and me is that I speak about what I know, you speak about what you think. And invent many thing : for example, that many kenyans were out of WCH for illness for covering doping, after the test of Lagat. IAAF informed AK only on 22nd (the day before the beginning of WCH) about Lagat, and Bernard was the only athlete of the team not competing. ALL THE OTHER WERE AT THE START. And, about him, remember that the control was in Germany and that he lives and trains in US (but I continue to think that he's positive for some misunderstanding, not for his will : of course, if he took EPO is doped, but innocent in his mind). Regarding the possibility of finding drugs, is very clear that you don't know Africa. In Africa is possible to find every kind of OLD DRUG, but of sure not the more advanced (like EPO or GH), that are not yet of common use. The truth is that the easier way for having drugs is Internet : if you live in a western and technological Country, you can buy every type of drug with your credit card, and sellers can send you a secret package without any control. This is a scandal, thank to the modern systems of communication, that are not well developed in Africa.

Now, we are living in a "doping mentality", that means that people don't think possible to reach their goals only using their forces. Everyone needs some external support. So, people don't drink water, but an integrator ; don't eat vegetables, but special energetic bars ; don't go to an examination well prepared, but need some recommendation.

You can think or not, but I'm fighting against this type of mentality. The strenght of a man is in his mind, not in external supports, and I try to transmit to my athletes this mentality. That's all.

?This 'innovator' constantly brings up people like Ryun, etc. YEP, THOSE GUYS HAD TALENT. ?

WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK THE KENYANS AND ETHIOPIANS HAVE?!?!?! THEY HAVE MORE TALENT THAN ANY RUNNERS ON THIS EARTH YOU COMPLETE FRIGGIN? PIECE OF SHIT MORON!!!!!!!!!!!

?And were drug free. They'd make an impact today, if they ended up in the sport.?

Ryun ran 3:51 on a dirt track at 19. That means he could of today, on a modern track with a modern tweak or 2 to his training/nutrition (NO, NOT DRUGS?.there have been other advancements), he could have run yes, like you said, likely 3:45?.AT 19 YEARS FUCKING OLD ABOUT 40 YEARS AGO!

SO WHY IS SO HARD TO BELIEVE THAT EL G OR SOME KENYANS CAN THAT FAST?.TODAY?.CLEAN??!?!? IT SHOULDN?T BE?..UNLESS YOU ARE BRAIN-DEAD!

And?did it ever dawn on some of the rejects on this board, that ok, maybe Renato did not create the brilliance of the Kenyans, but only nurtured it???? THE ITALIANS ARE NOT AS NATURALLY TALENTED AS THE KENYANS, PERIOD. AND?.they have fallen prey to the Western world couch-potato-drive-everywhere-take-it-easy mentality. And you think that is SURPRISING?.or SUSPICIOUS that the Italians don?t run as fast as the Kenyans???? HA HA HA. What a dimwit!!!

Renato, I IMPLORE you to ignore these 1 or 2 assholes who post this crap. PLEASE realize that it is just teenage or college boy with no girl-friends, nothing to do, no friends, and he gets his excitement by posting racist, USA, USA, USA!! , WHITE-POWER ?type posts just so he can insult you. It is the same guy or 2 posting the SAME crap over and over and over again. The only thing that REALLY pisses me off about him, is that I am starting to think that he actually believes the crap he writes, and that he knows more about this than you! !!

Clearly he can not sleep at night thinking that Africans are truly better than US athletes or white ahtletes at ANYTHING. The Lagat bust was the greatest day of his life. He now has ½ a fact (only A sample) that he can use to smear ALL AFRICANS, or anyone who runs faster than a white person. Of course Borzakovsky is clean in his book, because he is white. Russia has never had any cheaters???? Yeah, right!! Hey I think Borza is clean TOO?.but I think THE MAJORITY of the athletes are. There are some cheaters too of course. BUT? they exist in ALL nations. Cheating IS NOT A BLACK AND WHITE THING!! In this jackass?s world it is: blacks = fast = cheaters (and you can do that one backwards too: cheaters = black = fast); then it is: whites = slower = clean, or clean = slower = white = pure/honest. God what a SIMPLISTIC BASTARD!!! Here is GREAT quote from Bleary: ?There's honest, clean runners out there. But most of the top Africans don't qualify under that banner.? Dude, just FUCK OFF!!! You have ZERO proof of that. All you have is your self-centered, egotistical, nationalistic, racist mindset/agenda. THAT Is the only reason you make such a statement. And don?t EVEN say something stupid like ? oh the race card, oh that?s not fair!!? You ARE POSTING completely racist shit. Like? don?t trust the ?smiling? Africans, and the US sprinters were/are cheats, and the African distance runners are cheats?..oh, but Borza and Ryun, and anyone other great white runners, they WERE CLEAN!!?

Your whole mindset is sort of hilarious, sort of sad, and kind of scary & disgusting. Renato, just do not even give his/their posts any recognition! IGNORE them.

THANKS

[quote]Innovation my ass wrote:

Renato is not being honest. Either that or he's not as bright as he's trying to appear. EPO does help athletes, especially elite athletes. A 2 - 5% difference in performance is massive at the World Class level, and a lot of guys have improved so greatly in such short time, that no one except the most naive and foolish could believe it's all clean. Like the guy said above, you don't see a lot of Europeans running as fast as they did 20 and 30 years ago because the Europeans have given up the sport in large numbers.

as well they should. this once great sport encourages and rewards cheaters... spend your time on other sports and pursuits.

p.s....no "genetically gifted" african man has run under 3:50 or 13:00 without epo...

dr. steve wrote: p.s....no "genetically gifted" african man has run under 3:50 or 13:00 without epo...

If that is true (which of course it is not), then this would certainly be true:

'No white runner has ever run under 4:00 or 13:30 without juicing.'

It is equally absurd, but if we believe YOUR bull-shit, than we have to believe all BS.

The posting here has really gotten deplorable. I can't understand why you guys are trying to drive this coach off the boards.

He comes here of his own free will to share some good advice and you guys get into this ethics battle with him. What have you got to lose by listening to what he has to say about training. Are we as American athletes just going to lose and be miserable about it, or are we going to be open minded to other training methods and try to better ourselves as runners?

In regards to the mass doping of Africans, with the exception of a very small handful (single digits) of distance runners who have tested positive, there is no evidence that these runners are cheating. Gebreselassie, Tergat, and El Guerrouj have been running almost a decade with no evidence of drug use.

If you have already decided everyone is doping, why are you paying attention any more. Why are you on this board? If it's some massive IAAF conspiracy, what can you possibly do about it? "Go fishing"...that was nice Renato:)

Ask yourself what you think you could accomplish if you didn't have a job to report to every day. You could run 2 or 3 sessions daily, take naps, get regenerative therapy. Put me in that situation for 10 years and I feel like anything is possible. 3:26's, second halfs in 12:57, 26:30's, whatever.

The innovator wrote:

"What type of experience you have about Kenya ? What do you know about kenyan life, about the Country, about their traditions ? How many times were you in Kenya?"

Yes, nice diversion. That is the point, it has nothing to do with Kenya or life there or it's traditions. It is all about guys like you the Innovator, Jos Hermans, the late Kim McDonald, your countryman Dr Rosa, James Templeman, etc. that take them from Kenya, from their simple pastoral lives there, from their traditions and bring them to Europe where they quickly learn to play the dirty game (drugs, lying about their ages, taking bribes to change citizenship, etc.) and if they don't play they are quickly jettisoned for the next dirt poor Kenyan, Ethiopian or Morrocan or Algerian who is more than willing to play the game.

Also note, EPO and the next generation Repoxagen (for which there is no test, so forget about testing anyway) which these coaches and agents are supplying these runners are performances enhancers not training aid like steroids. That is why during the off season when they are in Africa, they are actually clean. That is why the Innovator and his cronies are always inviting you to "come to Africa to see how clean they are". James Templeton agent of Lagat and 800 man Kimatai was for years was on the T-and-F list "Inviting you to come to Kenya to see Kimatai train". Also note that Lagat took the EPO in Europe (Germany), not in America. When Lagat competed in America before he the agents got him into drugs he was routinely beaten by Goucher and Lunn. Even after he started taking drugs he would come back to America where he didn't take the drugs and one of our American High School guys (Alan Webb) almost beat the supposedly genetically superior Kenyan.

What these agents won't invite you to (and you don't want to be there anyway) is when they are in the hotel room located in the European city 4 days before the next big grand Prix payday and see them getting injected.

The foul mouthed Settler wrote (profanity removed) about Jim Ryun:

"?.AT 19 YEARS [profanity] OLD ABOUT 40 YEARS AGO!

I am going to use his ignorance to make another important point. After EPO use became widespread in the early 90s there was a huge and dramatic explosion of distance WRs and complete rewrite of all the top 50 lists. In the Settler's mind, he believes that this was expected since it was 30 years later.

Sorry Mr Settler, there has been no Evolutionary changes in mankind since about 35,000 BC.

There have been no significant changes in training methods since the early 70s.

There has been no new group of humans added to the competiton. The Kenyans started competing internationally in the mid 60s, the Ethiopians and Morrocans in the late 50s.

The only change is the drugs. As soon as you accept this, your anger will recede.

I see some of the guys here know the deal. I only differ with "Euro Hotels, not Kenya" in that the runners do indeed on some cases shoot up in Africa, as so many of them fly back to their native lands for a re-charge (not a break) and then back to Europe for more races. Then a lot of them also get their medicine between meets in Europe, where they feel they can have a clean test by the time officials get to them. Dirt poor Africans will have a higher propensity for drug use of any kind as can be seen anywhere, so why would Africans using drugs in sport be any different?

It's also true the Kenyans have been competing for quite some time, but the real drop in times, the rise of Kenyans COINCIDES EXACTLY WITH GABRIELE ROSA FIRST WORKING WITH KENYANS. When MacDanald, Hermens, Templeton, etc. saw what could be done, how testing could be evaded, how willing the runners were to use anything, and how the race card could be played when someone asked questions that the crooks didn't like, it became a big game amongst these bastards. And all the while, the mouth breathing Westerners would gobble up stories of genetic marvels, etc. No sir. Without drugs, you wouldn't see the number of top Africans you now see. In fact, some of their top guys might be different individuals altogether. Take a look at when Rosa began working with Kenyans, then look at what happened immediately afterward in the 87 XC and Track WC's. Then look at when Hermens began his crooked involvement, and so on. Yeah, it's all a coincidence.

If as many Europeans could avoid spot testing, and if many Europeans were as impulsive as Africans when it comes to taking drugs like EPO, the scene on the track would probably be a bit different. Oh, the E. Africans might have a higher percentage of the top runners, but you'd also see riduculous and fast improvement by Europeans runners that would have all of the defenders of the Africans screaming for an investigation.

Between Lagat getting busted, 12:57 for the final half of a 10k, and Bungei's remarkable week of going from pneumonia to 1:42, we've seen enough to realize why non-fans of running think the sport borders on the ridiculous. The drug problem is far worse than that in the NFL or MLB.

Settler wrote:he could have run yes, like you said, likely 3:45?.AT 19 YEARS FUCKING OLD ABOUT 40 YEARS AGO!

Actually, Ryun was a better runner at 20 and 21 than he was at 19, look at the splits in his races - before he had mono. I agree he would run 3:45 or so today, at age 21, but that would be due to his freakish talent, not drugs. Read some of the posts from Dr. Daniels (jtupper) and you will realize what a talent, a what a freak, Ryun was. Most of the guys the last decade or so running under 3:48 are benefitting from rabbits, better training, better tracks, better shoes, and drugs. No phsyiological testing has ever showed that Africans should be dominating in the way they do now. Testing has shown there are whites with the talent to run like the Africans, in some cases, they should easily be exceeding them. The missing ingredient is competitors. Few Europeans and Americans are interested in the sport, and very, very few are willing to be injected regularly with EPO. Same can't be said for the Africans, no matter which country they are from.

So, "Euro Hotels, not Kenya" is right when he tells Settler to knock off his ignorant tirade. The Kenyans have been a force for about 40 years. Like "They're all gassed" stated, things changed rapidly when the drug docs started to work with Africans. Records drop, what we've seen amongst individuals is strange to say the least. Geb struggled to get under Aouita's old 5k mark, and then is running the second half of a 10k at faster pace? Please.

Lagat is just the latest warning flag. Broken hearted true believers like Settler need to have a Coke(tm) and a smile, then shut their ignorant mouths.

dr. steve wrote:

... as well they should. this once great sport encourages and rewards cheaters... spend your time on other sports and pursuits.

p.s....no "genetically gifted" african man has run under 3:50 or 13:00 without epo...

Good post, dr. steve. While I think a couple of Africans have run under 3:50 and 13:00 minutes without EPO, none of the Africans has run under 12:58 without being juiced. None.

You are right, other sports are more worthy of attention right now, as the mindset of so many Westerners has them unable to mouth what they know is the truth when it comes to drug use amongst the E. Africans. We can also thank greedy Western agents and coaches for this, along with the greedy mindset that so many Africans have developed from growing up with nothing.

joel wrote:

In regards to the mass doping of Africans, with the exception of a very small handful (single digits) of distance runners who have tested positive, there is no evidence that these runners are cheating. Gebreselassie, Tergat, and El Guerrouj have been running almost a decade with no evidence of drug use.

If you have already decided everyone is doping, why are you paying attention any more. Why are you on this board? If it's some massive IAAF conspiracy, what can you possibly do about it? "Go fishing"...that was nice Renato:)

Sure. Lagat ran for years without evidence of drug use. Carl Lewis among other top US sprinters ran for over a decade with no evidence of drug use. It all came out after the fact, as the Amerian Federation protected their horses. Same as the African Federations do now, because seeing their runners win races is a matter of national urgency, of national pride. Sorry, your argument doesn't cut it. It is a conspiracy, but it's turned into a conspiracy of retaining the status quo in order to keep from embarrassing the sport, keep people from losing their jobs, etc. Maybe you and Renato can go fishing and come up with plausible excuses. ; ]

Joel asks us:

Why are you on this board? "Go fishing"...that was nice Renato:)

He is basically asking us if we believe it is all corrupt, why don't we just go away. And it is a legitimate question.

It is quite simple Joel. We love the sport of distance running just as much as you do and probably more. However, unlike you, we do not equate the sport of distance running with the drug polluted morass that currently exists at the Pro level. You see them as one in the same. Our sport of distance running has been hijacked by drug peddlers. The reason we won't go away and won't go fishing is we want our sport back. As long as there are dupes like you supporting this drug drenched charade the sport will continue to decline until there is nothing left. T&F News noted that several more Euro meets were cancelled this year. A wise guy asked me to leave the store. Well, it turns out people are leaving the store in droves not just me. They aren't "buying" the product.

A great analogy is another drug drenched charade and that is Pro Wrestling. The only difference is that they have more integrity, they don't pretend the action is real. Your sport, Joel, is pretending teens can go from 28:20 to 26:30 in 10 weeks. If that was really the Innovator's brilliant 10 weeks of drug free training, it would be perfectly reasonable that that type of improvement would continue for someone who is just a teenager and it would be logical to expect he would be running about 24:50 for 10000 within a couple of more years. Reality is that it was drugs and a much more likely outcome is he won't even be on next year's Kenyan Olympic team, won't ever run any faster and within 2 years be long gone from your sport.

Joel, as soon as you and your kind stop defending the drug circus, they will be exposed and we can start rebuilding our sport.

The sport is rife with drug cheats from the dark continent. However, current attituded inculcated by generations of PC brainwashing won't allow most of the sheeple to question the actions of any group that enjoys protective coloring or protected status, even if the basis for their protection, for the status, for their alleged victimhood, is false. Africans are one of these groups. Carte blanche to cheat. If one gets caught, there are 5 more to take his place, no questions asked. If a European distance man is caught, it's time for public castigation, discourse on the evils of cheating, and the inherent superiority of those who can cheat without question. Without mentioning their cheating, of course.

Euro Hotels (nice screenname): You claim that people are not buying the product. Sports and television as a whole have suffered greatly in the last 10 years. There are so many sources competing for the entertainment dollar right now. My opinion is that T&F is not declining because of supposed drug use. Rather, it is just a sign of the times. I believe the NFL, NASCAR, and perhaps soccer (not in the US, i.e. WUSA) are the only sports still experiencing growth.

Sorry about the store remark. That didn't add anything constructive.

A few possibilities on the outstanding performances of this track season. You all should have a field day with these.

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1. Bungei's amazing 1:42 - He was in 1:42 shape for the Kenyan trials that he missed. Remember these are the most competitive nationals in the world. Unlike Ethiopia and Bekele, Athletics Kenya appears to be more strict on who is allowed to go. No trials, no WC's. So missing the trials served as his taper period. This happens all the time in the US colleges and high schools. Somebody runs their best time coming back from a 1-2 week layoff from a cold or muscle strain.

2. Bekele and Geb close faster than one of Geb's old world records - Geb ran 12:58 in the mid-90's. I'm not suspicious that he has improved his aerobic capacity significantly during that time. Frank Horwill (pardon me if it was someone else) mentions that Geb's 10k specific training began at 10x400m in 63 seconds with 45 seconds recovery. He has worked this session up to 50x400m present day. As for Bekele, he has learned from the master himself, Geb. So there has been no wasted training time. Geb was able to give Bekele the precise knowledge and training to reach elite status.

3. 18 yr. old Nicholas Kemboi improves from 28:19 to 26:30 over the summer - First of all, he might not be 18. This isn't cheating except in the sense of Junior Records. I don't care any more about junior records than US soil records or other such banalities. Now let's take a closer look at that 28:19. It occurred at the beginning of the summer after a road season on a day of insufferable heat and humidity. Specific track training had not begun, according to Renato. With Geb and Bekele getting away early to their 26:50 performances, I'm sure Kemboi lost touch with the pack and ran by himself for that race. Incidentally, if anyone in that race was on EPO, their thick blood would have killed them on the track right there. Fast forward to the 26:30 performance. Specific training has been done. A taper has been performed. The weather is much better. Geb paces Kemboi to 2nd and he doesn't lose touch early in the race. Completely above suspicion from where I sit.

4. Lagat - Can we just wait for the B-sample, please?

5. Radcliffe - What else can she do? Mail her pee to your house?

Alright. I'm not anyone's lawyer here, but I just want you guys to consider all the information available before you jump to these drug conclusions. Track has evolved.

Settler wails about racism, but the only racist post I've seen is his. Lagat is a black African. So is Chepchumba. We haven't seen any American distance men bagged for this. No British guys. Get over it. Your African hero was nailed fair and square. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

joel wrote:

1. Bungei's amazing 1:42 - He was in 1:42 shape for the Kenyan trials that he missed. Remember these are the most competitive nationals in the world. Unlike Ethiopia and Bekele, Athletics Kenya appears to be more strict on who is allowed to go. No trials, no WC's. So missing the trials served as his taper period. This happens all the time in the US colleges and high schools. Somebody runs their best time coming back from a 1-2 week layoff from a cold or muscle strain.

Bungei and the Kenyan Federation claim he had pneumonia. You do not run your best within a couple of weeks of pneumonia, even if it's "walking pneumonia". He was found sick the same day Lagat was tested. Maybe there's a connection, maybe not. One thing is certain, he didn't have pneumonia.

The 'thick blood' (viscosity) problems presented by shall we say, purposes not advised by the manufacturer, is easily overcome, under a doctor's care. All of the EPO'ers are under medical supervision.