Haile Gebs 1995 5K World 12:44 youtube link

60secsurge wrote:

I don't know why this point isn't bought up more often?

I've certainly bought it up a lot.

60secsurge wrote:The results in the 1990's speak for themselves and are of no great surprise to most people who know that generally speaking the Kenyans and Ethiopians are more naturally gifted in the sport of distance running then the rest of us.

uh oh, now you've gone and upset skuj.

Skuj, care to make a rejoinder to this statement by "60secsurge" ?

I distinctly remember a Brojo saying something similar too "if i can do 28min, can someone else who is gifted, and running as a child, and brought up in an environment that treats this very importantly, run 26:20 without drugs? Sure?"

Lancy, why are you doing this to the jos?

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

60secsurge wrote:

I don't know why this point isn't bought up more often?

I've certainly bought it up a lot.

60secsurge wrote:The results in the 1990's speak for themselves and are of no great surprise to most people who know that generally speaking the Kenyans and Ethiopians are more naturally gifted in the sport of distance running then the rest of us.

uh oh, now you've gone and upset skuj.

Skuj, care to make a rejoinder to this statement by "60secsurge" ?

Lancy, for once we agree. Now I'm upset. For all the usual reasons.

I have seen many of your posts Sir Lance and I usually agree with them. I just haven't seen many people bring up the point about no Americans, Europeans etc breaking 13 and 27. The question being that if EPO is so rampant in distance running, why are there no non Africans doing this?

T[quote

A great post...

...The results in the 1990's speak for themselves and are of no great surprise to most people who know that generally speaking the Kenyans and Ethiopians are more naturally gifted in the sport of distance running then the rest of us.[/quote]

I think the rise of the Africans in the 80s and 90s was a paradigm shift in distance running. I also think (and I'm sure I'll get bashed for saying this) that all the complaining by Westerners about not being able to keep up is at best rooted in jealousy, and at worst, thinly veiled (perhaps even unconscious) racism and xenophobia. We simply can't accept that fact that a bunch of very dark skinned people from a bunch of mostly third world countries where they grow up running barefoot to school every day could be trouncing runners from the most powerful and developed countries in the world.

Well, perhaps it is BECAUSE they grow up running a 20 mile roundtrip to school everyday (often at altitude) when they're kids that they become so advanced so young. Perhaps it is their very African genetics that make them athletically dominant, in the same way that African American sprinters are dominant.

But no, we just say they're dopers, and then shriek and wail if everybody doesn't goose-step behind us like frightened little lemmings.

Back to Beamon.

He made his jump in thin air but so did all of the other competitors that night including the world record holder.

Bob Beamon won by more than 2 feet.

It wasn't just the thin air. It was the perfect jump.

Geb's race race was more than hitting the board just right and taking off in perfect rhythm.

He combined great fitness with an unconscious effort.

X Runner wrote:

Back to Beamon. He made his jump in thin air but so did all of the other competitors that night including the world record holder. Bob Beamon won by more than 2 feet.

Great point.

People taking shots at me only proves that they are childish and lack maturity. Instead of personal attacks, I give you this:

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/20/sports/EU_SPT_Germany_Doping_Probe.php

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/drugs/stories/top10.html

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1899148#B1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Ferrari#Ferrari_and_the_doping_allegations

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/cycling/story/0,10482,529487,00.html

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/8820.0.html

http://english.people.com.cn/200509/07/eng20050907_207036.html

Add to that the case of Dr. Gabriele Rosa, coach to Tergat and many other Kenyan runners, who has doping allegations following him like he plague. When American runners tired a program similar to Rosa's they strangely break down and become injured. I guess the good doctor forget to ship over the special sauce.

So I ask you this question, if you believe that the best in MLB is doping (Bonds) and it's also easily believable that the best in the NFL is on steroids, and of course the best in cycling, then why do you not also believe that the best in track and field is also doping?

Alan

Runningart, look at the fastest times ever run by athletes that are undoubtedly clean. Look at Khalid Khannouchi, for example. His first marathon was run in 2:07 while working as a dishwasher. Look at Dave Moorcroft, a white guy, who ran 13 flat almost 30 years ago. Is it too much to say that someone could run much faster than Moorcroft, or was he the limit of human ability?

X Runner wrote:

Back to Beamon.

He made his jump in thin air but so did all of the other competitors that night including the world record holder.

Bob Beamon won by more than 2 feet.

It wasn't just the thin air. It was the perfect jump.

And he had the same thin air in all of his other jumps. It was just a perfect jump for the ages.

People aren't taking shots at you, they're just pointing out your ridiculous statements. Do you deny you said flight attendants have very dangerous jobs and therefore should make exorbitant sums of money? To wit, you're equating Bonds with the best in baseball. Friend, Bonds isn't in the top 100 best baseball players today.

Moreover, do I think Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Stephen Jackson and LT are on steroids? Absolutley not.

Those are the best in the NFL, no?

walter wrote:

Moreover, do I think Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Stephen Jackson and LT are on steroids? Absolutley not.

Those are the best in the NFL, no?

Maybe that's why Rex Grossman sucks so much. He's not doping. Or maybe he's just a mental midget. But, I digress...

Runningart2004 wrote:

People taking shots at me only proves that they are childish and lack maturity. Instead of personal attacks, I give you this:

Don't you people REALIZE that when Bob KENNEDY set the American record during the 90's he had a coach named LINCOLN.

WAKE UP, PEOPLE!

RunningArt,

I've pointed this out before, but I'll do it again for you: who was front and centre in the Ethiopian photo taken in Mike Long's memory? Haile Gebrselassie.

And who pulled the drug cheat Leghzoui off the Philadelphia Half last year? Mike Long.

This was a guy who was so serious about drugs that he phyisically removed a drug cheat from his race. And he was counted as one of Gebrselassie's friends. Who do you think knows/knew the Emperor better: you or he?

I'd trust his judgement if I were you.

mobile9 wrote:

RunningArt,

I've pointed this out before, but I'll do it again for you: who was front and centre in the Ethiopian photo taken in Mike Long's memory? Haile Gebrselassie.

And who pulled the drug cheat Leghzoui off the Philadelphia Half last year? Mike Long.

This was a guy who was so serious about drugs that he phyisically removed a drug cheat from his race. And he was counted as one of Gebrselassie's friends. Who do you think knows/knew the Emperor better: you or he?

I'd trust his judgement if I were you.

mobile9:

You bring up several great points. Unfortunately (IMHO), for every Bob Beamon, Carlos Lopes and Long/Gebrselassie/Leghzoui example we bring up, Alan Cubed is going to "fit the shan" with some whack-job conspiracy theory. That's just what he does.

If I've learned anything in my 40 years on this planet, it's that you can't argue facts with fanatics. Same species, different language.

I just noticed that a few of my and Alan Cubed's previous posts have been deleted. Guess somebody monitors these threads after all. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It's the brojos' site, and they can do what they want with it. I don't have any problem with that. I just never noticed it before.

Well, for some reason, he seems to be a lauded and respected letsrun poster, for which I have no explanation.I guess if you get ample letsrun "street cred," disparaging posts will be deleted in your favor.C'est la vie.

SVC wrote:

I just noticed that a few of my and Alan Cubed's previous posts have been deleted. Guess somebody monitors these threads after all. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It's the brojos' site, and they can do what they want with it. I don't have any problem with that. I just never noticed it before.

They were likely deleted because calling me names and cursing at me adds nothing to the discussion. Did you even read any of the links I posted? I suggest you do so. My flight attendant comment was taken out of context. They tend to make higher wages then the national average because they 1) are away from home all the time and 2) the job is more dangerous than sitting behind a desk. I used the pilot/flight attendant comment to defend why Alaskan Crab fisherman make a lot of money. For jobs that require little advanced education (ie: do not require at least a bachelors) you'll find that for the most part the pay is dependant on 1) how inconvenient the job is and 2) how dangerous it is compared to sitting on your tush.

So, back to the actual dicussion at hand...

Take a look at the progression of world records and the progression the top 50 world leading times. In a natural progression you should see smaller and smaller gains, but what we saw in the 90s and are continuing to see today are HUGE gains. From 1993 to 1993 to 1997 the record dropped 36 seconds. Less than 5 years and over 30 seconds. It took from 1972 to 1993 to drop from 27:38 to 27:07, 31 seconds in 20 years. In 2005 Bekele ran 26:17, so we've dropped 50 seconds in 12 years since 1993.

The East Africans do possess a greater genetic talent for distance running, which is why you see many East Africans in the low-mid 13:00s and low 27:00s. The percentage of that population with the talent to run those times is greater. So while we have a handful of guys running those times they have maybe 5 or 10 times that many. The depth of talent is understandable as it compares to the depth of talent the Finnish runners or New Zealand runners used to have. IE: a lot of good times, but not so far ahead of everyone else. Even Henry Rono wasn't leagues ahead of Alberto Salazar. The difference between the haves and have nots is simply too great to think it could have been done naturally especially when the likes of Jos Hermens is managing the Ethiopian runners and the likes of Dr. Rosa is coaching/managing the Kenyans. Look up their history, it's not clean.

Alan