Training in Flats - Give Your Testimonies

this is a great thread. I have been running in adrenalines in years. i recently switched to the axioms for a couple of pairs, and now i have gone to the new balance 902. they are not a flat, but have a very low heel to toe drop. since the switch i have been experiencing pains in the inside of my shins, inside knees and right itb. so i was just wondering if anyone else experienced these same problems and if so were they all from the transition. also how soon did these pains disappear.

Well this thread turned out great, thanks to everyone for sharing their experience.

What do you think about the Nike Free line?

RE the question of mileage on flats:

I used to go to about 1000 but I now change them at about 500. I think that there is a slightly greater risk of injury when the shoe gets compressed, not because of reduced cushioning, but because the shoes may not wear in a perfectly even manner and I don't want to run on lopsided shoes.

At 65 bucks for a pair of Streak XCs, even if they only last 2/3 as long as trainers, you're still coming out ahead.

the triumph is one of the softest shoes on the market. the only shoe that is for sure softer than it is the vomero. i had a pair and they were ok but not great. they broke down pretty quick that is for sure.

as for flats....i tried that last fall. i started in the triax tc which is a heavier flat about 9.5 oz i think. i had a stress fracture in about 2 months (first one of my life). flats don't work for everyone. everyone here makes it seem like such a good idea and the best way to train but that's not always the case. try it at your own risk.

sjc, you surely know the usual line is "I got injured, and now I'm telling y'all, no doubt about it, flats will cripple you for life. And cause chromosome damage to boot."

Thanks for the refreshing change of pace. Certainly I agree, no one type of shoe is optimal for every runner.

Sometimes you gotta try things to find out what works for you, "experiment of one" and all that. Even as a confirmed fan of flats, I was surprised to discover that my PF earlier this year got worse in cushy LWTs and better in flats.

I did it for a while. No real problems. Just make sure to transission into it if you decide to take the plunge.

I'm about to go and run in a pair of those Onitsuka MoscowsI mentioned earlier. I've been running regularly in this particular pair of shoe since early 2004, though not exclusively by a long shot. I have a pair of Onitsuka Harriers that I got in the early 80s which I still use. I had a pair of Asics 15-50s, the spikeless xc flats which I got rid of when a big hole turned up in the upper and some of the plate had worn away on the sole.

You can run in flats until they fall apart. You aren't looking to the shoe for cushioning, you're looking to your own foot placement to minimize shock. So you don't need to worry about the material in the sole compressing like you would in a conventional trainer.

Now that may not be the case with a cushioned racing shoe that has an elevated heel. A shoe like that really has more in common with a conventional trainer than some of the models a lot of us posting here use. But even then, I've found you can extend the life well beyond that 500 or so miles that people use as a benchmark now. I got around 2,000 miles on a pair of Asics Gel Paws by taking out the insole at about 500-600 miles and replacing it with a Spenco.

I have had achilles problems recurring this year since using flats for a track workout and warmdown. The eccentric raises have allowed me to keep training, but haven't cured it. I also noticed yesterday that I usually get the achilles problem in the sandy part of the Central Park bridal trail, probably because the heel lowers like in flats. I'd like to be able to at least race in flats, because the clunkers are costing me a few seconds a mile probably. Is it feasible for me to use flats, given that my achilles problems were brought on by flats?

I would say jonesy the problem might be that you aren't wearing flats all the time. It sounds like you are alternating between a heel shoe, then using flats for workouts, so yes, your entire gastroc/soleus is still in contraction most of the time.

proper running technique is important when you wear flats. You can't be up on your toes all the time - or you will get hurt. You still need a midfoot strike with some landing time on the heel.

A college teammate of mine swore my training in flats all the time. He trained all summer in them and by the 2nd week of XC practice he had a stress fracture. Taking off a couple of months to recover from his injury, he resumed training in them and got another stress fracture within weeks. After taking 5 or so months off he began to his summer training for this year's xc season. Less than a month into the summer he got another stress fracture and has now quit running. I think training in flats is fine if you have good mechanics running. My teammate did not have the best form and seemed to land in his heel more so than most other runners, but then slapped the front of his foot down. I think his poor form contributed to his injuries but I've said he's a dumbass since his first stress fracture. He just doesn't learn.

I had the same experience when I first switched to lightweight trainers. I could run a half marathon in my Saucony Kilkenny flats but would experience achilles pain for about a week after a hard effort. I switched to the more supportive Saucony tangents or fast twitch shoes and in training for my recent marathon have not had a single pain in my shins, knees or hammys this entire session. I ran my speed work in Kilkennys and all of my long runs including 3 x 35K in my Tangents. I think that it takes a while to build the strength in your feet but in the long run it is way better for your legs. I am running faster and pain free than I was in my prime running days. I am back up to ~120-140K/week. I threw out my orthotics and motion control shoes last year.

sukkeli wrote:

When I ran a marathon a few months after, I managed to get sore achilles tendons. (And a tempo run one week after the race killed them. Not very smart...)

This never paints the entire picture. For all you know, your friend didn't eat right, or something else was going on. His stress fractures are likely the result of something else going on, not his shoes.

the same can be said about flats...it never paints the whole picture. changing to flats didn't necessarily cause all your injuries to disappear, "for all we know, you weren't eating right or something else was going on."

Jaguar or other Stress Fracture experts, I have suffered through two tibia stress fractures (on in each leg). I am about to ramp up my mileage and I am very concerned about getting another fracture. I am a under-pronator and currently run in Nike Vomeros. I do a lot of stretching, shortened my stride and increased my calcium to prevent another fracture, is there anything else I can do to prevent a fracture.

thanks

To understand Achilles problems, you have to understand the mechanics of how it developed in the first place. Legally blond is spot on that the problem may be from alternating higher heeled shoes and lower heeled shoes.... tightening it and stretching it over and over again, which is going to cause microtears, scar tissue, and inflammation. Furthermore, you're doing your 'most stressful' runs in the lower heeled shoes-- the stress of forceful running/pushoff combined with the stress on the Achilles from being in the lower heeled shoe is too much!

To take this a step further-- what are you wearing for your street shoes? If there's a sharp contrast between your street shoes (~amount of heel, stiffness) and your running shoes, that could definitely cause problems.

Additionally, you talk about getting sore going through sand. My guess is your shoe is 'sticking' to the ground as your heel/foot lifts up and off the ground.... this is going to 'tug' on your Achilles. This is exactly why I suggest the barefoot running cause you eliminate this 'tugging' action by your shoes. This is especially problematic if your shoes are loose.

You literally have to find grass ASAP when your Achilles gets the slightest bit sore. If you wait too long, scar tissue will develop and it gets trickier to treat (although I still fully believe in the therapeutic benefits of barefoot running, even for the most severe problems). You need to get your Achilles healthy... there is no point in racing and possibly knocking yourself out of running for a while.

Should add contracting forcefully.

Totally agree. I don't think you have to make a conscious effort to change your mechanics. You simply learn to be the most efficient and more 'gentle' with less on your feet. However, it's hard to realize and understand this if you're only doing hard runs in the shoes. I mentioned this in my first post-- you gotta 'lift' off the ground, not push. Land closer underneath your body, rather than foot stretched out on the heel (~overstriding).

What if you wore your flats for daily wear for a few weeks before running in them? Would that help?

Umell wrote:

I am about to ramp up my mileage and I am very concerned about getting another fracture.

Run slow.

jaguar1 wrote: You literally have to find grass ASAP when your Achilles gets the slightest bit sore.

You really have a penchant for the unconventional cure, don't you. Where the average runner would reach for Advil, you send 'em to go hit the bong. OK, I can buy it - most folks around here could use a little mellowing out anyway.

But is a sore Achilles legal justification for medical marijuana? In which states?

Good one.;)

I'm a little tired this evening.... meant to say grass for running barefoot.