The OFFICIAL Webb Tactics Critique Thread

Wow cool race. It was awesome seeing two americans basically pushing the field. Webb didn't look like he ran an awful race, he just didn't have the finish those other guys had. He'll probably be extremely let down, I can see him being pretty torn up. I hope he isn't, he may not have hit his ultimate goal, but he hit about 4/5 summer goals. He took a good shot at it, but didn't have the kick. I don't think it was a tactic issue, aside from maybe trying to string out the pack a touch more. They were sorta starting to space a bit, then they all bunched back up with 100-150 to go.

One another note, first american gold medal at 1500m in a long long long long time. Go Lagat. That guy has had one heck of a career I think if anyone deserved it, it was him. It's weird how the feeling after the race is "FINALLY this guy gets his gold"...where if Webb had won it would have been "AMERICAN GOLD!". Either way I'll take it, Lagat's american, he deserved it, WooooHooo. I hope we have a showing like that next year.

His tactics were perfect, he just didn't have it today. I don't know if that was because he peaked too soon, was getting over illness, getting over injury, or just because he doesn't respond very well to having to run rounds. Whatever it was, we'll never know-- and Webb & Raczko will have far better insight into that than we do.

Back to tactics, it really looked like Lagat was keying on Webb, hoping to run him down after he kicked past Korir. Coming into the last curve, he seemed to realize that Webb didn't have it today & swung out wide rather than following Webb into the homestretch. Luckily, he had the kick to bring it home.

Ramzi's tactics were horrible. He got boxed in because he went to the rail on the final curve instead of hanging on Lagat's shoulder like he had most of the race. Lagat saw the situation & swung wide. Ramzi saved energy on the curve but paid for it in a big way.

It's a shame Webb didn't have it today. Ramzi had to wait for Lagat to pass before he could swing around the Kenyans in front of him. Had Webb been on today, Ramzi would have had to have waited for Lagat & Webb to go past & might have been deprived of a medal altogether (at most, he might have gotten up for bronze).

Had Webb had it today, he & Lagat would have finished 1-2. Don't know who would have taken gold (Lagat really looked in peak form), but it would haved been an even sweeter finish for the US. Oh well. Great job by Lagat, and better luck next year to Webb.

I agree with Guide Dog. Webb's tactics were fine.

Instead of looking at what Webb did wrong, what did Legat do right? Recall how well Legat ran in Nationals after his 5000m win, practice for all the heats at the WCs. Also, Legat did not over race and get preoccupied with time goals over the summer. He was completely focused on this race. Webb probably lost something mentally with all his racing and all the media hype. The USA media practically ignored Legat.

Legat is a classy stand up guy. I am proud that he won for the USA. Congratulations!

How do you not know this? wrote:

Look, people, as the favorite - perceived or real - you're going to be boxed in if you give the field the slightest of chances to oblige. Why do you think Webb ran the first two rounds the way he did? To not get boxed and to advance. In the final, in order to maintain a state of unboxediness, he had to press pretty much the entire way. I don't care what the clock said, pressing from the front is never easy, especially after rounds. Not to mention the team tactics going on all around him. What should he have done differently, other than run faster for the last 100?

He should have peaked in late August. 3:51 in April??? OUCH!!!

He had an otherwise exciting season though. But even he said some strange things going into this: "No pressure now, because I've already done well..." I think he knew he was tired.

peaked too early. Traditionally Americans often peak too early for late season championships.

Yeah, I really thought Webb was going to blast past everyone with 100m left. For the most part, he ran a very good tactical race and put himself into position to win. But here are some things I'm considering:

1. Heshko (the other "heavy" 1500 runner at WC) didn't make it past round 1 - maybe the heat/humidity was effecting Heshko and Webb more than some lighter others.

2. Maybe Webb's hamstring is not 100%, or maybe the "slight strain" indicates a bit of overtraining in the first place.

3. Webb had control of the pace through the whole race and made it legit. However, it was not fast enough to take the kick out of any of the top guys so he could use his strength. It was also not slow enough so he could use his 1:43 speed over the last 800m.

So maybe AW should just decide to not lead, no matter what, the first 800m. Then make SURE the pace is pushed hard after that, even if it means taking over the lead at 700m out.

PhysMech wrote:

1. Heshko (the other "heavy" 1500 runner at WC) didn't make it past round 1 - maybe the heat/humidity was effecting Heshko and Webb more than some lighter others.

Excellent analysis. I also considered the Heshko angle. I think the conditions do affect the thick, power runners more.

And before one of you chimes in: yes, they do all have to run in the same conditions. They are all not affected the same, however. Bekele in Mombasa, anyone?

Webb did a superb job; just didn't have what was required to win today. Nice effort - both for the race and the season (which isn't over, btw).

PhysMech wrote:

So maybe AW should just decide to not lead, no matter what, the first 800m. Then make SURE the pace is pushed hard after that, even if it means taking over the lead at 700m out.

I agree that this was his best chance for a medal, it likely would have not been the Gold as I think Lagat was the class of the field in either a strength race or a speed race.

Most of the guys in the final were very, very solid. And Webb may be better than most of them, but not by much.

his tactics blew and they were the cause of his combustion. He did not run smart at all. It was his race to lose and he took himself out of medal contention when he took the lead early.

Do I have to remind you all of what kind of stupidity Webb has shown us over the years -- watch --

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrybLjlBfDE

I was very hopeful for him...but it was like watching the same old Webb again. I thought he was ready to own the world.

Thankfully, there isn't a video of it.

his tactics sucked wrote:

his tactics blew and they were the cause of his combustion. He did not run smart at all. It was his race to lose and he took himself out of medal contention when he took the lead early.

Do I have to remind you all of what kind of stupidity Webb has shown us over the years -- watch --

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrybLjlBfDE

I was very hopeful for him...but it was like watching the same old Webb again. I thought he was ready to own the world.

I actually thought that Helsinki race was really smart. He's not a kicker, so that was at least a tactic that put the race in his control and played to his relative strengths. The ironic thing is that now he is the sort of runner who can make that type of race work, but he resorted to a sit-and-kick strategy.

Incidentally, do any of the stats guys out there know the worst finish in a WC 1500m for the current (at the time) world leader?

Finally saw the vid of the race. In truth, Webb looked like he ran about as well as he could have yesterday... he was in perfect position with 400m to go, but he just didn't have the same pop in the final 100m as he did earlier this summer. Live and learn. Despite what he said during his discouraged postrace comments, I think he gained some valuable experience. Now he's just gotta fine-tune his training so that he peaks at the right time.

All in all, solid effort and a great year for the guy.

Nice job, Alan.

I put this in another thread about Webb's chances of medalling at a Championship race, but thought it might fit here as well. Sorry for the repitition.

I believe Webb will have trouble in championship races at the 1500 MOSTLY because of his kick.

He is a strong kicker, but not a big acceleration guy. He has a 300-400 meter out strength kick that doesn't fluctuate a lot off a fast or slow pace. That allows him to run great times in rabbited races. Yes, he ran a nice 800 this year, but that was more a case of wearing the field down, not top end speed and acceleration. He doesn't have the big acceleration last 100-150 meter kick that it takes in championship races.

*** He showed that ability a little early in the year at the Reebok meet, but his mechanics have changed slightly since then. ***

He will need the pace to be very fast for his type of kick to be beneficial in championship races. Unfortunately, right now, there are no other top medal contenders that are in this situation. Therefore, he either must set the hard pace and end up as the field's rabbit, or develop that jump that everyone else has. Either way, this still makes him go against his ideal race strategy to try and medal.

Another major difference between championship meets and the rest of the summer schedule is the number of athletes circling the date. There are a much higher percentage of athletes that gear their season for the Championship meet (Lagat is a prime example). Webb now has a much deeper more focused field than the rest of the summer. Just look at everyone's predictions to see how many athletes we all believe have a shot at medalling. Out of all of us experts, how many feel like idiots, or at least should feel like idiots right now. Wejo's $207,000 enticement was safer than a cow at a Hindu BBQ.

I also don't believe that his kick has everything to do with finishing 8th. Many Letsrunners have given plenty of plausible and probable reasons for this. I believe confidence, improper peaking, hamstring problems, cheaters, and several other things each played a role. This race and his future successes and failures won't be due to any one factor.

Not doing this to start an arguement, but Webb's strength and his kick are more well suited for the 5000 at the championship level. I believe it will be his best event down the road, and I'm not trying to run him off the 15, but it is where his strength is for this type of racing. He's had a great year at the 15, and I can't wait to see what else he can do with it. I just think that his strengths and weaknesses make this event an extremely tough one to medal at. Much tougher than his times coming into these meets would suggest.

Flame away.

I hope Webb does not end up being the first 3:46 miler in history who never got either a WC or Olympic medal.

I just hope Webb doesn't end up being the first miler in history to be unafraid of maximizing his potential, putting America back on the middle-distance map and re-energizing an entire generation of aspiring runners in the process. Yeah, that would suck.

The problem with a racing plan is that everybody else also has a racing plan. Only one produced a victory. It is mighty easy to critique any of the failed plans. The fact that so many athletes were within spitting distance of each other at the finish shows the efficacy of all their plans. All in all it was a heck of a race.

coacht27 wrote:

The problem with a racing plan is that everybody else also has a racing plan. Only one produced a victory. It is mighty easy to critique any of the failed plans. The fact that so many athletes were within spitting distance of each other at the finish shows the efficacy of all their plans. All in all it was a heck of a race.

Good thoughts.

Too many on here think that tactics are simply a strategy that you decide upon ahead of time. This is part of it, but the other (more important) part is responding to how the race unfolds around you.

"Not leading early" may be a good strategy, but someone has to lead! The smart tactic is to know when not leading puts you at even more of a disadvantage than leading would. Webb knew his only chance was off an honest pace, so he had to lead early when no one else shot out. In retrospect, it may have been a mistake to wait until the final straight to attempt reclaiming the lead (which he was not able to do), but if Webb thought that the gear would be there he cannot be faulted tactically.

The question he needs to answer is "What happened to that gear?" We can speculate all day, but we don't have nearly the information needed to figure that one out.

Ramzi, on the other hand, cost himself a shot at the gold with his poor tactics. I don't think he would have run down Lagat, but he would have been much much closer.

Like many of us, I'm pulling for Webb too. Still, with so many track studs disappointing us over the years with positive drug tests, what are the chances this is an issue with (mis) timing of performance enhancing drugs?

Are we naive to ignore this possibility or cynics to jump to this conclusion... or worse, de-sensitized to this threat to our sport?

I still can't get over how those "stealth" Algerians snuck into 5th and 6th. Those guys were virtual unknowns who were inches from the medals. The 1500 is a crazy event in total flux right now.