Why didn't Krum receive the same praise in 2002 that Webb has received over the last four years?

666 wrote:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about me but the fact that the U.S. is 2/3 white is an extension of why it's true. I'd say that most of the people reading this board are white males; I ran D1 track as a minority, in XC I was a super duper minority... You know what I mean?

Most of the time I don't sell products or services, I sell an image, a lifestyle. Track athletes are products just as clothes, or whatever product, is. I wont sell young urban clothing to young urban females by plastering images of old women with nonsexual mature undertones.

I was not trying to say anything bad about you at all. I thought you made a good point. As far as marketing goes, it pays to normally market to the biggest audience. As far as middle distance and distance running goes, its mostly whites.

The point that I was trying to get to in my earlier post was that I've noticed that some people try to play the race card and they should not. Prime example is Gary Sheffield. I am not a Yankees fan at all, but there is no way that Joe Torre treated him differently because he was black. He treated him like a child because he is Gary Sheffield.

Sorry for posting back to back....I just read the post about Krum being a "bore". This is dead on. Webb has flare and shows emotion all the time.

I am a Krum fan and was very happy for him when he won his WC. I cannot help but feel that he "got lucky" maybe on that day. I do not want to take anything away from him, he was running well at the time and his 1:43/3:31 are impressive, however there is an "aura" if you will about running 3:46 for a full mile, by yourself, when you tell everyone that this is what you are going to do.

Krum ran the race of his life and won, he deserved it, however, I just feel that if that race was run 10 times, Krum only wins 1 or 2 out of the 10. That day happened to be that 1 time.

Why does race always come up here. This is not 1964.........

unbiased observer wrote:

I think it's fair to ask whether the difference is Krum's skin color. You'd have to be blind not to. Look at Meb, Lagat, Krum, Abdi, Khadevis Robinson, Jonathan Johnson - how popular are these guys next to Webb, Ritz, Hall, Solinsky, Rupp, Symmonds, Goucher? Not very. The first group has more Olympic medals and American records than the second group, but the 2nd is like a Letrun dream team.

I think there is a distinct trend that someone touched on earlier here, but I want to emphasize it a bit more. I'm going to take the guys you mentioned (and a couple others) and briefly go over a few points on each one, and see if you notice a trend:

Meb - 2nd at FLN '93 behind Goucher, before Dyestat, and near the beginning of the rut of the 90's, so people weren't looking for a "savior" yet

Lagat - didn't go to HS in the US, competed in the Olympics for Kenya. Collegiate "import" looked at with some frustration and disdain by many native NCAA runners

Krum - 1:51 in HS '93, nothing special, same "savior" deal as Meb. Was never much of an XC guy (did he even run it in HS?) which is where lots of fan base is drawn from in HS and college

Abdi - HS in Somalia, another collegiate "import" like Lagat

Khadevis Robinson - 47relay/1:53 HS, attended Texas Christian College, so really no pre-existing fan base to draw from there, despite his NCAA title in '98

Jonathan Johnson - 1:48.2 HS '01 so should've had some nice hype but I wasn't reading boards back then. Never ran XC, which is a strike against him on these boards, but other than that not sure why he's never talked about much. Boring name? Boring personality? Not sure on him.

Webb - 3:53 HS, tons of (earned) hype as savior in HS, at a time when US running was in desperate need of a savior

Ritz - 13:44/8:4x(1?) HS, plenty of HS success, hyped well

Hall - "Big 3", 4:02 HS, more hype and savior talk

Solinsky - winning FLN by 20 seconds, 4:03/8:43, another HS stud, tons of NCAA titles

Rupp - 13:37/7:49 HS, yet another "savior of US distance running"

Symmonds - anomaly of the group, decent HS runner but his DIII story earned him a DII/DIII/NAIA following

Goucher - FLN champ, not as much hype as the others in HS (I believe), but RWTB cemented his icon status.

Lomong - cult following on Dyestat since HS due to his (and teammate Dominic Luka's) incredible versatility. Flotrack has helped show him as a genuinely nice guy.

Manzano - dominated Texas HS running for three years with 9 titles split between the 800/1600/3200/xc. Don't remember how much HS hype he got, but he at least had a cult following which exploded after his first NCAA title.

Culpepper - 3:50/14:58 HS '91, again before we were desperately searching for a savior.

Carney/Kirkpatrick/Moran - The fact that I can lump these guys together says something about them right from the start. Relative no-namers in high school and more or less through college (for the most part) as well, came on the scene a little too slow and a little too late to garner much attention. Our HS darlings are finally running well. These guys would've been praised in the 90's, but now they're 2nd tier.

Sell - zero to hero story appealing to current "zeros"

Fam - without Run Like Hell, he'd be on the Moran/Carney level

Teg - 4th member of the "Big 3", not as much hype as the other three, but his association with them combined with 13:04 have done the trick. Never as popular as the other thee anyways.

There's popular minorities (i.e. Lomong, Manzano), and unloved whities (Culp, Moran, Kirkpatrick, etc). The theme I noticed looking all that up was the big names now are the ones who either acheived HUGE HS succes (or at least had a cult following, which exploded upon NCAA success) during a time when US distance running was on the back end of a long slump and needed a hero. There are plenty of HS'ers who were deemed possible saviors who never made it in college or afterwards (Magness, Sage, Deak, etc). We've just forgotten about them. If you proclaim every good HS kid a possible savior you're bound to get one right. Lagat, Meb, Culp, etc were too early in two ways. The Dyestat hype machine wasn't in full motion (or any motion at all) in the early 90's, and the 90's slump was just beginning. Goucher got around this and got his fame by being the protagonist of RWTB. Fam, Sell, Symmonds, Carney, Moran and Kirkpatrick were your average HS runner. Fam got his fanbase from Run Like Hell, Sell from being the face of Brooks-Hansons, and Symmonds for coming through the DIII system. The other three haven't done much to distinguish themselves yet (though Moran's Pan-Am victory sets him apart from the others in my eyes). Johnson is the one who confuses me the most, he gets the least praise out of all these guys and I'm not sure why. Nothing terribly exciting that I can see from him though other than times.

Of course, racism likely plays into it all as well, I won't discount that. But I don't think it has a big of a role as some people would have you believe. I think that's part of Johnson's problem. The fact that I forgot to even mention guys like Lincoln (an AR holder), Riley, Dobson shows that there's more to who gets talked about than the color of their skin.

666 wrote:

Commen Cense wrote:

You're free to believe whatever you want, but it has nothing to do with Krummenackers skin color.

I work in marketing/creative direction, I'm a minority, and I'm good at what I do -- at least I like to think I am. Anyway, if I had to choose between Krummenacker (A goddamn World Champion) during his prime or Adam Goucher, guess who I would chose as a rep for middle/long distance track? Hmmmm.... it's just the way it works. A reality in business but of course our PC-ness gets in the way in actual discussion.

--

1st Krum won indoor worlds, which means just about as much as winning a golden league meet.

2nd Krums personality makes bob kennedy look like prefontaine.

3rd Krum did not do anything near what Webb did in HS.

If Webb didn't break the 4 min mile in HS he would have been largely ignored until now.

It has nothing to do with race.....however, you have posted 2 times and each time went out of your way to tell us your skin color.

Krummenacker is a very decent guy and I was happy, like many American track fans, when he seemed poised for an international breakthrough. But he is indeed a low key type and to me, the most pertinent thing is that it doesn't seem to bother HIM that he's not making progress ... that in fact, he's backsliding. He also seems to have abandoned the 1500 and mile completely...when was the last time he raced seriously at that distance?

Terminator X wrote:

Krum - Was never much of an XC guy (did he even run it in HS?) which is where lots of fan base is drawn from in HS and college

for the second time in this thread: krum was a state cross country champ in high school...

NYC - to discount race completely is a very, very foolish thing to do. Webb is easier for us to identify with due to his skin color. It's not that people think less of Krummenacker and Johnson and Abdi, it's that, for the most part, it's easier for whites to identify with whites, for blacks to identify with blacks, pink with pink, green with green. It's not a bad thing (note I am not saying it is a good thing), it's just a thing. It's how humans are. We identify and bond best with those most similar to us. We can identify better with fish than with algae, dogs over fish, our fellow man over dogs, and going further we can identify better with our own gender and skin color (which are the two biggest visual classifications we have, followed probably by size which is irrelevent here) than those that aren't our own. Why do you think women tend to enjoy women's sports more than men do? Same reason it's easier for some 10:00 3200 high schooler to identify with Brian Sell over KK. It ain't cruel racism, it's the facts of life.

Dusty Bones - It's more than a bit unfair to assume that Krum's mild demeanor means he's not concerned that his times are slipping. Just as when he was having success his mild demeanor did not mean he wasn't happy with his performances. We con't know him personally (well, some on here probably do), and since he's more publicly reserved than say, KD, we really have no idea what's going on in his head. Don't confuse quiteness for complacency. He is getting on in his years (especially for an 800 guy) and I have no doubt he's busting his ass every bit as hard as the rest, he's just on the backswing of his career while others are on the upswing.

but i was right - Sorry for missing that. While that may change the facts, the point still stands. According to his USATF profile he won 3 800 state titles, 2 1600 titles, and 1 XC title (as a junior), with an 800 pr in the high 1:51's. Despite how some of you may feel, that's not really too much on the national scene (especially considering it was in the mildly podunk state of New Mexico), when compared with the other guys who I mentioned who are winning national titles and setting junior records. He was just your average HS state champion, you see guys like that every year. Hell, I was a state champion in high school, how come I don't have a huge fan base? Actually, I do know a guy who's HS profile is very similar to that, except with less track titles because he had guys like Austin Abbott and Nectaly Barbosa to deal with. 800 guy with a HS pr around 1:52 who won XC state as a junior, not repeating as a senior. No doubt some people on here will know who I'm talking about, but the majority won't. I imagine that would have been the case with Krum in HS, had boards like this even existed! Which is another one of my main points, he didn't have the Dyestat Hype Machine to kick his popularity off! The definite trend I'm noticing is that the most popular elites are the ones that were absolute studs in high school. That's where it starts. Krum was good in high school, but he wasn't an all-timer like Webb Rupp and Solinsky were.

'cuz LetsRun wasn't up and running like during the rise of Webb.

Krummenacker joins Holman and Falcon as the fastest US distance runner not to make an US Olympic team.

Still, I was Krummenackers biggest fan in 2002 when he showed that US distance runners could still compete. He paved the way for Webb. He should have switched over to the 1500 several years ago. I hear he has run a 1:45 800 this year. This is still a good speed base for the 1500.

Actually , distance running gets little coverage in this country. So you could say both Webb and Krummenacker have not received the same praise.

Holman ran in the 1992 olympics.

Also, Krum is the world's greatest seeker.

[quote]Terminator X wrote:

NYC - to discount race completely is a very, very foolish thing to do. Webb is easier for us to identify with due to his skin color. It's not that people think less of Krummenacker and Johnson and Abdi, it's that, for the most part, it's easier for whites to identify with whites, for blacks to identify with blacks, pink with pink, green with green. It's not a bad thing (note I am not saying it is a good thing), it's just a thing. It's how humans are. We identify and bond best with those most similar to us. We can identify better with fish than with algae, dogs over fish, our fellow man over dogs, and going further we can identify better with our own gender and skin color (which are the two biggest visual classifications we have, followed probably by size which is irrelevent here) than those that aren't our own. Why do you think women tend to enjoy women's sports more than men do? Same reason it's easier for some 10:00 3200 high schooler to identify with Brian Sell over KK. It ain't cruel racism, it's the facts of life.

Dusty Bones - It's more than a bit unfair to assume that Krum's mild demeanor means he's not concerned that his times are slipping. Just as when he was having success his mild demeanor did not mean he wasn't happy with his performances. We con't know him personally (well, some on here probably do), and since he's more publicly reserved than say, KD, we really have no idea what's going on in his head. Don't confuse quiteness for complacency. He is getting on in his years (especially for an 800 guy) and I have no doubt he's busting his ass every bit as hard as the rest, he's just on the backswing of his career while others are on the upswing.

Terminator--I was going to nominate these two paragraphs as the most rational posts of the year until I read further and see that you consider New Mexico "mildly podunk." Now I feel like just calling you names...

but i was right. wrote:

for the second time in this thread: krum was a state cross country champ in high school...

That isn't really a very big deal.

te wrote:

Terminator--I was going to nominate these two paragraphs as the most rational posts of the year until I read further and see that you consider New Mexico "mildly podunk." Now I feel like just calling you names...

Do you mean to imply then that it's completely podunk? ;)

Truthfully I know little about NM HS running. I know AA is (currently) one of the best teams in the nation, and Tebo is a mighty good runner as well. I have a friend who went to HS with Tebo, even she admits NM is pretty ho-hum. Outside of Tebo and AA I never really hear anything about NM as compared to places like CA, TX, NY, IL, WA, etc, so I just assume they're most likely 2nd or 3rd tier (nationally) running-wise. And that's only for the last couple years, they could've been a million times better or a million times worse 10-15 years ago for all I know.

Maybe I give NM too little credit, but either way they're certainly not a powerhouse state.

Again, the facts change but the point remains the same.

In 2002 Krummenacker had a great season. However, after that his career has been anticlimatic. There were flashes of brillance, but also some disappointments. If only he switched over to the 1500 a few years ago.

I didn't discount it completely, but it is so far down on the list that to mention it without conceding the blantantly obvious reasons is not just foolish, its mildly retarded.

recap...indoor world champion.....lets not forget that ms culpepper won a bronze in worlds and we all know that she is one of the top 3 runners in the world....cough....cough.

boring personality....it aint cruel, it's just the facts of life.

jim ryuns record.....come on guys, lets be serious. That was the biggest event in USA track in 30+ years.

nyc wrote:

I didn't discount it completely

nyc wrote:

It has nothing to do with race.....

Terminator X wrote:

nyc wrote:

I didn't discount it completely

nyc wrote:

It has nothing to do with race.....

it does have nothing to do with race, and yet we always know its there, just like you said its part of life, and unless its blatent racism there is no need to mention it....thus "it has nothing to do with race." just like it has nothing to do with oxygen, or it has nothing to do with gravity...even though gravity and oxygen did play a role.

and yet of course once again, you stick to race and omit the obvious reasons. i mean the type of reasons Corky from Life Goes On would mention first.

nyc wrote:it does have nothing to do with race, and yet we always know its there, just like you said its part of life, and unless its blatent racism there is no need to mention it....thus "it has nothing to do with race." just like it has nothing to do with oxygen, or it has nothing to do with gravity...even though gravity and oxygen did play a role.

and yet of course once again, you stick to race and omit the obvious reasons. i mean the type of reasons Corky from Life Goes On would mention first.

Question: Did you even read my first post? It was entirely devoted to listing those reasons for several runners, Krum included. You're essentially agreeing with me, except that I believe race plays a bigger part in it than you do. You seem to be assuming that everyone who disagrees with you is saying "race is the end-all-be-all factor in popularity". Life isn't just black and white (pun intended), my opinion is somewhere in between. I don't know if you're lumping me in with the people shouting "racists!!!" or just arguing with me for the sake of arguing or what. Essentially we agree. Don't confuse my argument with that of others.