Josh McDougal is the man - Sick 5k/10k double 22:57 apart

Oh Ryan wrote:

Golden West wrote:

Why is that stupidity?

Do you really have to ask why that might be considered stupid? That's an awful lot of hard running in spikes in 24 hours, even if some of it is 'a workout'.

I highly doubt he wore spikes for the 10k, maybe not even in the 5k.

still rolling wrote:

malmo may remember this but what did Tommy Fulton do back around '73/'74 when he won everything from 1500m to 10k in his conference meet? That was a superman performance.

That was Tommy Fulton of Texas Southern, who won the 880, mile, 3 mile and 6 mile at NAIA Nationals in 72 or 73. Fulton, a 3:57 miler beat Mike Boit in the process.

ask rojo wrote:

I highly doubt he wore spikes for the 10k, maybe not even in the 5k.

Why would it matter?

I can name 3: Haile Gebrselassie said it in the book The Greatest, just click and buy it below on this site. Hicham El Gerrouj said it in an interview i read. And Mark Wetmore said it in Lear's Running With the Buffaloes. Those are some pretty reputable voices in distance running, eh?

terps wrote:

I can name 3: Haile Gebrselassie said it in the book The Greatest, just click and buy it below on this site. Hicham El Gerrouj said it in an interview i read. And Mark Wetmore said it in Lear's Running With the Buffaloes. Those are some pretty reputable voices in distance running, eh?

Why would either Gebrselassie or El Guerrouj make any comment on the American collegiate system at all? Better do better than that.

Mark Wetmore, exactly what did he say?

malmo wrote:

Oh Ryan wrote:

Do you really have to ask why that might be considered stupid? That's an awful lot of hard running in spikes in 24 hours, even if some of it is 'a workout'.

You're joking? or an 18min 5k runner? or both?

That's not even a hard workout for McDougal. If he were to race a 15k he's run about 43:00. Why does a cumulative effort of 44:20 with rest even raise an eyebrow?

It doesn't surprise me that the average inexperienced Letsrun reader would be impressed, but I'm shocked that Rojo would think McDougal's effort was "sick." Sometimes I just don't know.....

Malmo, brother, I'm not gonna argue with you. I can tell that you are all worked up about letsrunners questioning his double. Take a deep breath... point of fact: I did not say I thought it was stupid, but I can certainly see why it might be 'considered' stupid. Obviously that's not a huge effort for the kid, but (assuming he ran in spikes), 9 miles is still 9 miles on the track, in spikes. Especially considering he is entered to race in the 1500.

Hey, kudos to him if Liberty is going for the win and he's willing to score as many points as possible.

don't know what?

Oh Ryan wrote: Obviously that's not a huge effort for the kid, but (assuming he ran in spikes), 9 miles is still 9 miles on the track, in spikes. Especially considering he is entered to race in the 1500.

What of 9 miles in spikes? What does that matter? Do any of you run competitively at all?

malmo wrote:

Oh Ryan wrote: Obviously that's not a huge effort for the kid, but (assuming he ran in spikes), 9 miles is still 9 miles on the track, in spikes. Especially considering he is entered to race in the 1500.

What of 9 miles in spikes? What does that matter? Do any of you run competitively at all?

Ha ha. You are really fired up about this, huh? I'm not sure how 'competitive' it is, but yes I've run decently, sub 29:20 and sub 2:17:30. Not sure why it matters? Ok, so we get that you were a beast and would not think twice about doing that double. However, there are plenty of coaches who would be reluctant to have a runner do that double a couple of weeks before nationals. Maybe that means there are a bunch of bad coaches. I wouldn't have done that double at this point in the season. Maybe that just means I'm a pussy.

I think you've made your point clearly enough: you don't think it was that fast, and you don't think 9 miles on the track is that hard.

malmo likes his position on his horse just fine.

That being said, I agree....whats the big deal? McDougals a good runner. This was a hard workout for him. Thats it.

Well, Malmo, Chris Lear interviewed El G and his coach, Abdelkada Kada, in the book on Alan Webb, Sub 4:00, see pages 211-214. Lear writes that El G's coach said, "the American college system must be dismissed as a developmental ground for world-class milers. For sprinters, he said, it's okay. But for milers, he believes the demands of racing for three seasons are too great. He feels that collegiate coaches too often compromise the training of their milers in favor of short-term gain-a conference title, and invitational title, and so on. He stressed the need for a limited racing schedule, with no more than three or four races indoors and six races outdoors." Then he wrote El G "agreed with his coach, dismissing the collegiate system as 'not good at all' for developing middle-distance talent."

Then in Running with the Buffaloes, read p. 118-119, Mark Wetmore's interpretation of Haille G.'s quote on the Golden League, as "good, but not for distance runners. There are too many races in too short a time." So he applied that concept to a major theme of book, uninterrupted training coupled with limited racing. He discusses that principle all through the book.

So Haille did not directly comment on college runners, but the point is applicable, especially through Wetmore's comments and coaching methodology. El G and his coach directly commented on the issue.

You need me to look anything else for you Malmo?

Oh Ryan wrote:However, there are plenty of coaches who would be reluctant to have a runner do that double a couple of weeks before nationals. .

Why do you feel that running a 14:005k and a 30:00 10k (and probably a 3:40 1500) two weeks before nationals is something to be reluctant about? Sending McDougal to the ICAAAAs do that double/triple is like sending a high school football player to a grade school playground to steal lunch money. Where's the effort? Where's your perspective?

terps wrote:

You need me to look anything else for you Malmo?

Yes, back the original question: parts where they say the American collegiate burns out runners? Waiting patiently.

I'd venture to say that Geb was not referring to races which are pretty good workouts and no more.

Malmo, you ever heard of a Thesaurus? We do have words in the English language that have the same basic meaning as other words. And then you can string those words together, one person may say "burn out," while others speak to the same point, never directly using that specific phrase. It's a pretty cool thing, the English language. Actually, other languages do that too, but we'll hold off on that until you get a better grasp on this one.

For all, is Malmo always like this? You go into a great site to observe the pulse of American distance running, and you get Malmo types. Malmo, go out for your long run and get your mind right.

Well, since Malmo is, to the best of my knowledge, only one of two people who post on this site who have held an American long distance record (perhaps there are more), it might give his judgments a bit of added weight prima facie over those of the rest of us. On the substantive matters, I would just add two things that have not been said. First, McDougal does, I believe, have a full-ride to Liberty, which means he does have certain obligation to the university team. Second, with very rare exception, the greatest American distance runners have come through the university system.

terps wrote:

Malmo, you ever heard of a Thesaurus? We do have words in the English language that have the same basic meaning as other words. And then you can string those words together, one person may say "burn out," while others speak to the same point, never directly using that specific phrase. It's a pretty cool thing, the English language. Actually, other languages do that too, but we'll hold off on that until you get a better grasp on this one.

For all, is Malmo always like this? You go into a great site to observe the pulse of American distance running, and you get Malmo types. Malmo, go out for your long run and get your mind right.

malmo wrote:

terps wrote:

You need me to look anything else for you Malmo?

Yes, back the original question: parts where they say the American collegiate burns out runners? Waiting patiently.

malmo,

i respect your opinion highly. what bothers me is mcdougal recently ran the stanford 10 k after a triple at his conference meet. i realize his college meets aren't that challenging but the stanford meet seemed foolish regarding traveling and the rest of his college season meets to follow. he races way more then i would suggest regardless of % of maximum effort. am i too conservative?

thanks,

less feeling, great taste....errr... less races, more quality

less races, more quality wrote:what bothers me is mcdougal recently ran the stanford 10 k after a triple at his conference meet. i realize his college meets aren't that challenging but the stanford meet seemed foolish regarding traveling and the rest of his college season meets to follow. he races way more then i would suggest regardless of % of maximum effort. am i too conservative?

The whole goal of running is to race. McDougal is doing exactly what he should be doing -- getting in there and mixing it up. Good for him.

Start with looking up the word "inference." Nothing that you posted said anything about burning out runners.

Obviously, neither Coach Kada nor El Guerrouj subscribes to the words attributed to them by Lear.

Hichan El Guerrouj race history

2004 11 races (1, 10) sick

2003 16 (3, 13)

2002 15 (0, 15)

2001 21 (5, 16)

2000 12 (0, 12)

1999 13 (0, 13)

1998 17 (2, 15)

1997 18 (3, 15)

1996 12 (1, 11)

1995 10 (0, 10)