youtube: 1972 Oly 800 meter final

hey malmo, ed fry at IUP once told me about an American runner who beat Wottle once, but the guy was a head case and became a cigarette smoking barfly. Do you know who he's talking about?

i always thought the worlds best held the

WORLD RECORD

which wottle held

so no, he was not an underdog...he may have been injured leading up to the trials..but so was GEB....we're not talking about how he was "lucky" to beat Tergat

desert rodent wrote:

Never EVER let up wrote:

Dave Wottle!

Damn what a finish!! First time I saw that video.

That should be MANDATORY viewing for any young HS runners.

Wow.

It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. That race was 60% LUCK & 40% talent. BEFOREHAND, who would have predicted that race would have been won in 1:45.95? If Ahrzhanoz (sp) had waited & moved just before the 600 mark, would Wottle have won? Don't come on here touting Wottle as some kind of tactical genius; it just won't wash, buster. Wottle was already on the downside of a LONG track season; I don't think he could have gone out faster the 1st 200 even if he wanted to. Sometimes good things happen to LUCKY people.

So you are saying your 2:00 HS'er should run exactly 30 second splits....YES?

I don't know how old you are but Arzanhov used this tactic throughout his career. There was no reason for him to change. He had won a ton of races in a row going into that race. It just didn't work this time.

I'll go out on a limb here and predict that malmo has at least "heard" of these guys.

No it wasn't. Wottle and Arzhanov were co favorites going into the race.

Do this exercise. Find someone who was alive and paying attention during Dave Wottle's career and ask them if Wottle did anything much out of the ordinary during that race. He went to the back and moved up pending the pace. Had the pace "picked up" sooner, Wottle would have picked it up sooner. This is the way he ran.

boom wrote:

Malmo

Arzhanov had win the last 27 races of 800m he did participate and didnt loose a single 800m competition since 2 years and half and that included the European Champs, top meetings, trials and so. Take a look to the specialized Track and Field press about Arzhanov in the years of 1970 and 1971..

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/rankings/men/800worldranking.pdf

They did put him as the world best 800m runner in 1970 and 1971. Besides … To say that Wottle was the favourite because he did the WR some months earlier that´s simplistic.

It SHOULD be simplistic. Wottle was THAT much superior to Arzhanov. You're trying to blur what's right in front of your eyes by juxtaposing subjective T&FN rankings from prior years that do nothing to change the fact that Wottle was objectively a full second faster than Arzhanov in 1972. Wottle also easily manhandled much better fields than those that Arzhanov faced. T&FN’s rankings were very Eurocentric in those days and downplayed the superior efforts from the Americans and South Africans. Arzhanovs rankings were based on his wins against weak Eurotrash competition. Big whoop!

Here are the results of the 1971 Euros:

1971 Euro Champs/time/best 1971/(best if prior to 1971)/[world rank by time]

1. 1:45.6 1:45.6 Arzganov [4]

2. 1:46.0 1:46.0 Fromm (1:45.9) [6]

3. 1:46.2 1:46.2 Carter [8]

4. 1:46.9 1:46.9 Ohlert [24]

5. 1:47.0 1:47.0 Browne

6. 1:47.3 1:45.6 Plachy (1:45.4)[5]

7. 1:48.4 1:46.9 Medjimurec [25]

8. 1:50.9 1:46.9 Meyer [23]

Compare that 'stellar field' to this one:

1972 Olympic Trials/time/best 1972/(best if prior to 1972)/[world rank by time]

1. 1:44.3 1:44.3 Wottle [1]

2. 1:45.0 1:45.0 Wohlhuter [3]

3. 1:45.1 1:45.1 Swenson (1:44.8) [4]

4. 1:45.2 1:45.2 Ryun (1:44.2*) [5]

5. 1:45.3 1:45.3 Phillips [6]

6. 1:45.4 1:45.4 Brown [9]

7. 1:46.0 1:46.0 Phillipe [13]

8. 1:47.3 1:47.3 Fulton

1972 Olympic final/time/best 1972/(best if prior to 1972)/[world rank by time]

1. 1:45.9 1:44.3 Wottle [1]

2. 1:45.9 1:45.3 Arzhanov [7]

3. 1:46.0 1:45.87 Boit [12]

4. 1:46.5 1:45.7 Kemper (1:45.4) [11]

5. 1:46.5 1:46.0 Ouko [13]

6. 1:46.6 1:46.45 Carter (1:46.2) [21]

7. 1:47.1 1:46.3 Kupczyk (1:46.2) [17]

8. 1:48.0 1:45.4 Fromm [8]

To no one in particular:

Wottle and Arzhanov were co-favorites. Wottle called Arzhanov the heavy favorite due to his win streak(his words), but what would you expect?

Wottle did not intend to run the way he did. He came off the line extremely flat, lost a bit of focus, and was embarrassed & near panic at 300. He simply tried to finish (not last). Again, his words. In his mind he was never in control. He was thinking top 6 at 150 to go. He didn't think he could medal until 100 to go and then wasn't sure. He didn't think 'Gold' until 3-4 strides to go. He was hurt going into the games, after the OT. The injury scrapped the idea of focusing on the 1500 rather than the 800.

Wottle and a few other teammates always wore hats in training and racing. On the awards stand, he was so used to having it on that it felt natural and forgot to take it off. His mother was upset at this.

if wottle had hung around until 1976 he likely would have moved up to the 1500m. Can you imagine the kick that could have ensued against walker, van damn and coglan. That would have been sick. Walker would sill have taken it though.

cooser wrote:

if wottle had hung around until 1976 he likely would have moved up to the 1500m.

Dude, he ran the 1500 in Munich.

That is the silliest analysis ever - comparing the times of two races. One was tactical and the other wasn't. Heck the Barcelona '92 1500m was won in 3:40, does that mean the NCAA field is better than Cacho and those guys?

The Russian won Euro Indoors, and Euro Outdoor Champs as well as the usual slot of European meets. I don't know what sort of memory loss you are currently having but those definitely were NOT chump "eurotrash meets" there is a reason why they rate highly in the rankings - because they had a lot of the top competitive 800m runners around in that meet.

Wottle may have run a faster time but that doesn't mean he was far and away better than Arnzhov who ran in more tactical races, which is essentially what Olympic Finals end up being. Cacho's PR was over a second behind Morceli and the Kenyans in the 92 Oly's, but he still won, because it was tactical. PR's stop meaning as much in 800 and 1500 type championship events.

To Set a few things straight wrote:

Wottle did not intend to run the way he did. He came off the line extremely flat, lost a bit of focus, and was embarrassed & near panic at 300.

He simply tried to finish (not last).

He was thinking top 6 at 150 to go.

He didn't think he could medal until 100 to go and then wasn't sure. He didn't think 'Gold' until 3-4 strides to go.

Again, his words.

He simply tried to finish (not last). Oh my. The fastest runner in world history was trying to finish 7th against one of the weakest fields ever assembled in Olympic history? Got a Bridge in Brooklyn to sell me Mr Wottle?

Embarrassed and in panic? Sure didn't look like it, did it? That Wottle was one cool cucumber.

Thinking top six with 150 to go? He was top six with 150 to go, and then 4th, right on the shoulder of 3rd with 120 to go, a great place to be for the fastest runner in history, who, coincidentally, had the strongest finishing kick of anyone in the field.

If those really were his words, he really is the biggest sandbagger in the history of the sport! Wottle's legend grows with every one of your posts.

tidal osaka wrote:

That is the silliest analysis ever - comparing the times of two races. One was tactical and the other wasn't. Heck the Barcelona '92 1500m was won in 3:40, does that mean the NCAA field is better than Cacho and those guys?

Could your analysis of malmo's point be any more simplistic?

Wottle may have run a faster time but that doesn't mean he was far and away better than Arnzhov who ran in more tactical races, which is essentially what Olympic Finals end up being. Cacho's PR was over a second behind Morceli and the Kenyans in the 92 Oly's, but he still won, because it was tactical. PR's stop meaning as much in 800 and 1500 type championship events.

Wottle was at least a co favorite with Arzanhov and was only, apparently, worried about Arzanhov since he didn't move until Arzanhov did.

It's amazing that the race link is posted an no one has apparently watched it based on some of the comments.

Wottle knew exactly what he was doing....despite what he may have said afterwards...and moved when the guy he knew was his only competition moved. He remained in good position throughout the race.

Well it's simplistic because evidently this malmo guy's reasoning is simplistic. But I am not sure why you are posting to me, I am agreeing with your point.

Wish to remain anon wrote:

Wottle knew exactly what he was doing....despite what he may have said afterwards...and moved when the guy he knew was his only competition moved. He remained in good position throughout the race.

I don't disagree with Malmo that DW may have made the race a little more dramatic with his post-race words.

I do believe him, rather than anon., when he said he was "not" always in good position.

I thought he blew it when he got hung up a bit in traffic around 200 to go after covering Arzhenov's backstretch move. As any 800 runner will concur, it is very difficult to reaccelerate which DW had to do. It shows me that he was still within himself at that point.

tidal osaka wrote:

That is the silliest analysis ever - comparing the times of two races. One was tactical and the other wasn't. Heck the Barcelona '92 1500m was won in 3:40, does that mean the NCAA field is better than Cacho and those guys?

Your's is the silliest rebuttal ever. Note that I even provided a comparison of best performances for the years in question AND best performances by those athletes' in prior years. The fields that Wottle faced were far superior to the fields that Arzhanov faced. There is no denying that simple fact.

You should also not that Arzhanov's win at the 71 Euro's was NOT 'tactical' by any means. Four of the top five in that race set lifetime bests! The only one who didn't was Fromm, and he missed his lifetime best by a scant 0.1s.

I keep posting the FACTS, they're right there in black and white, but you are oblivious to them.

My whole point, folks, was that Wottle ran a SMART race and provided American kids with a lesson in PATIENCE in one of the most thrilling, exciting, ball-busting-come-from-behind-nip-'em-at-the-wire-finishes in any race any time at any meet.

He waited, perhaps out of necessity, and ran his own race and brought home an Olympic Gold medal. How many here can make that claim, without resorting to stealing one or buying one off eBay?

How this got turned into an attack on Wottles' status as WR holder, or "lucky" running, or anything else is beyond me. I found the video edge-of-ones'-seat exciting.

****Cripes can't ANY single thread get started here these days without having to bitch or find fault?****

See WTF I am referring to? What an insane asylum.

Never EVER let up wrote:

My whole point, folks, was that Wottle ran a SMART race

and provided American kids with a lesson in PATIENCE in one of the most thrilling, exciting, ball-busting-come-from-behind-nip-'em-at-the-wire-finishes in any race any time at any meet.

I completely agree with part 2. However, as DW said himself, lagging so far behind to run even splits was NOT his intent. It is tough to call it smart, which I equate to calculated, even though it turned out that way.

Nothing negative intended in any way, but I won't call the pot white for the sake of drama.

What if its a white pot?