Why shouldn't a white American run as fast as the best Africans?

Marius, 95% of the kids running XC in the US are not in it for the long haul, are not serious about it in terms of trying to make it to the top. You can bet that it's the reverse in any poor country, especially Kenya. Consider the way, and this has to be blunt, white youth are discouraged in most sports today - when it comes to saying you're going to try and be a 'pro' - and you will have few, if any success stories. Also, your limited experience cannot be used to judged things. That's like people who wonder how their candidate lost a national election by a landslide, when 'everyone they knew' voted for the loser.

You're right, the talent exists all over - in varying 'densities' of course. Westerners have little interest - right now. The cattle rustling theory is something I read before, and I remember the man that came up with it (many thought he was a woman because of his name) was needlessly called a racist. He wasn't trying to be racist, just presenting a theory backed with facts. The real racists are guys like J Squires who try to hammer every non-African into the dust, especially whites, just because they are driven by some kind of strange self hate, self loathing. Bizarre. There are many, many more Mottrams and Halls etc. out there, many potential Coes (better than Coe in fact) out there, but they are not running, won't run. They're addicted to XBox, or they are told they can't do it before they ever start. Having Western teens race 24 year old African 'juniors' doesn't help either.

City Boy wrote:

The East African domination has been for a long time relative to competetive running. I think when it ws dominated by Europeans there was not a sigle track in all of Africa that at could be used by one of "color"

Ha. Another PC idiot. "One of 'color'". There were tracks in Kenya, built by the English. They're not the greatest, but not the worst, and some of them have been there for just over 50 years. Go home, self hater.

Thats a good point, no wonder they are so fast. Since 1960 there are some track built by the English.

STOP WITH YOUR MULTIPLE POSTS UNDER DIFFERENT NAMES!! We get it! You and a few others repeat the same nauseatingly boring bullshit over and over and over again. WE F'N GET IT....There is a conspiracy to keep whites from doing well in sports that is being forced on us by PC liberal professors, politicians, and the "powers that be." Did I get that right? Say "PC" one more time and you desever to be shot.

What a complete waste of life you are. YOU are setting Marius straight on this subject?? Puh-leeeeaze!

And I absolutely love this myth of the perfect East African environment for running. It's friggin' hilarious. Yup, growing in abject poverty with high rates of AIDS, malaria, malnutrition and starvation is the PERFECT enivronment to produce a horde of great runners. Do you know how many possible Gebs or Bekele's probably died as children in East Africa??? Quite a few I am sure. Geb's father tried to force him to work on the family farm and not run. He had to go against his Dad's wishes to do it. Yeah, LOTS of Western kids if they wanted to trying running competetively would be told "no" by their parents.

Marius is 1000% correct in his assertions. Listen to him.

Do you think the absolute and almost absurd dominance of black runners with WEST African roots in the sprints is a CULTURAL phenomenon??? OR let me guess, it is another example of the PC conspiracy to keep white athletes down??? I thought that when a country like the USA has lots of other sports like football, baseball, basketball etc these sports will pull away potential running stars? Isn't that one of the arguments on why the US does not have more distance stars?? BUT....somehow, this plethora of other sports has not hurt our sprinting ability, despite the fact that the type of athlete that would end up in the other sports is certainly more of a sprinter body type than a distance body type. You people would crack me up if you weren't so infuriatingly dense and full of nonsense like "talent is hard work" & "PC conspiracies to keep the white man down." For the love of GOD!

The best East Africans(and to some extent North) clearly have more talent ON THE AVERAGE than then best non-East African in distance running. There will ALWAYS be a few exceptions to the rule. Yes there is Mottram, yes is there Ryan Hall, yes there is (on the sprinting side) Jeremy Warniner. But even with those exceptions, can an all-star team of non East African Cross-country stars (selecting from nearly the ENTIRE planet) hold a candle to a team of East AFrican stars(selecting from a very small region of the globe) ??? No way, no how. This has nothing to do with Political Correctness and very little to do with hard work. No one trained hard, pushed themselve to the brink of death in races, or wanted it more than Alberto Salazar. And he would almost be lapped in a 10k against Geb or Bek. And Alberto HAD some talent. Just not on the same planet of talent as the very best East Africans.

Well said-

End of discussion

About 99% of these lists are runners from East(mostly) and North Africa. About 1% are from the rest of the world put together. Yup, the conspiracy to keep the white man down is working! And every single one of these guys just wanted it more than all of the other talented white runners(except Mottram and a few exceptions) from around the Globe. Suuuure.... virtually no driven, hungry HARD-working runners from outside East Africa located anywhere around the Globe. Ok, whatever you guys say.

Result Name Country Venue Date

1. 12:37.35 Kenenisa Bekele ETH Hengelo 2004-05-31

2. 12:39.36 Haile Gebrselassie ETH Helsinki 1998-06-13

3. 12:39.74 Daniel Komen KEN Bruxelles 1997-08-22

4. 12:46.53 Eliud Kipchoge KEN Roma 2004-07-02

5. 12:47.04 Sileshi Sihine ETH Roma 2004-07-02

6. 12:48.66 Issac Songok KEN Zürich 2006-08-18

7. 12:48.81 Stephen Cherono KEN Ostrava 2003-06-12

8. 12:49.28 Brahim Lahlafi MAR Bruxelles 2000-08-25

9. 12:49.71 Mohammed Mourhit BEL Bruxelles 2000-08-25

10. 12:49.87 Paul Tergat KEN Zürich 1997-08-13

11. 12:50.24 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR Ostrava 2003-06-12

12. 12:50.25 Abderrahim Goumri MAR Bruxelles 2005-08-26

13. 12:50.80 Salah Hissou MAR Roma 1996-06-05

14. 12:50.86 Ali Saïdi-Sief ALG Roma 2000-06-30

15. 12:51.98 Saif Saeed Shaheen QAT Roma 2006-07-14

16. 12:52.33 Sammy Kipketer KEN Oslo 2003-06-27

17. 12:52.40 Edwin Cheruiyot Soi KEN Saint-Denis 2006-07-08

18. 12:52.80 Gebre-egziabher Gebremariam ETH Roma 2005-07-08

19. 12:52.99 Abraham Chebii KEN Oslo 2003-06-27

20. 12:53.41 Khalid Boulami MAR Zürich 1997-08-13

21. 12:53.66 Augustine Choge KEN Roma 2005-07-08

22. 12:53.72 Philip Mosima KEN Roma 1996-06-05

23. 12:53.81 Tariku Bekele ETH Roma 2006-07-14

24. 12:53.84 Assefa Mezgebu ETH Bruxelles 1998-08-28

25. 12:54.07 John Kibowen KEN Saint-Denis (WC) 2003-08-31

26. 12:54.15 Dejene Berhanu ETH Roma 2004-07-02

27. 12:54.19 Abreham Feleke ETH Roma 2006-07-14

28. 12:54.46 Moses Mosop KEN Saint-Denis 2006-07-08

29. 12:54.58 James Kwalia KEN Oslo 2003-06-27

30. 12:54.70 Dieter Baumann GER Zürich 1997-08-13

31. 12:54.85 Moses Kiptanui KEN Roma 1996-06-05

32. 12:54.99 Benjamin Limo KEN Saint-Denis 2003-07-04

33. 12:55.52 Hicham Bellani MAR Roma 2006-07-14

34. 12:55.58 Abebe Dinkesa Negera ETH Saint-Denis 2005-07-01

35. 12:55.63 Mark Bett KEN Oslo 2000-07-28

36. 12:55.76 Craig Mottram AUS London 2004-07-30

37. 12:55.85 Boniface Songok KEN Bruxelles 2005-08-26

38. 12:55.94 Thomas Nyariki KEN Stockholm 1997-07-07

39. 12:56.27 Albert Chepkurui KEN Oslo 2003-06-27

40. 12:56.29 Paul Koech KEN Zürich 1997-08-13

41. 12:56.50 Luke Kipkosgei KEN Oslo 2000-07-28

42. 12:56.72 Richard Limo KEN Zürich 2001-08-17

43. 12:57.05 Mulugueta Wondimu ETH Berlin 2004-09-12

44. 12:57.11 Boniface Kiprop UGA Stockholm 2006-07-25

45. 12:57.23 Worku Bikila ETH Roma 1995-06-08

46. 12:57.79 David Chelule KEN Roma 1999-07-07

47. 12:58.03 Joseph Ebuya KEN Saint-Denis 2006-07-08

48. 12:58.21 Bob Kennedy USA Zürich 1996-08-14

49. 12:58.39 Saïd Aouita MAR Roma 1987-07-22

50. 12:58.57 Hailu Mekonnen ETH Roma 2001-06-29

51. 12:58.58 Moukhled Al-Outaibi KSA Heusden-Zolder 2005-07-23

Mike Kigen KEN Oslo 2006-06-02

53. 12:58.83 Ismaïl Sghyr FRA Oslo 2000-07-28

54. 12:58.94 Paul Bitok KEN Oslo 2002-06-28

55. 12:59.08 Jonas Cheruiyot KEN Stockholm 2006-07-25

56. 12:59.22 Bernard Lagat USA London 2006-07-28

57. 12:59.27 Zersenay Tadesse ERI Roma 2006-07-14

58. 12:59.39 Million Wolde ETH Zürich 1998-08-12

59. 12:59.79 Mushir Salem Jawher BRN Saint-Denis 2005-07-01

Result Name Country Venue Date

1. 26:17.53 Kenenisa Bekele ETH Bruxelles 2005-08-26

2. 26:22.75 Haile Gebrselassie ETH Hengelo 1998-06-01

3. 26:27.85 Paul Tergat KEN Bruxelles 1997-08-22

4. 26:30.03 Nicholas Kemboi KEN Bruxelles 2003-09-05

5. 26:30.74 Abebe Dinkesa Negera ETH Hengelo 2005-05-29

6. 26:35.63 Micah Kogo KEN Bruxelles 2006-08-25

7. 26:36.26 Paul Koech KEN Bruxelles 1997-08-22

8. 26:37.25 Zersenay Tadesse ERI Bruxelles 2006-08-25

9. 26:38.08 Salah Hissou MAR Bruxelles 1996-08-23

10. 26:38.76 Abdullah Ahmad Hassan QAT Bruxelles 2003-09-05

11. 26:39.69 Sileshi Sihine ETH Hengelo 2004-05-31

12. 26:39.77 Boniface Kiprop UGA Bruxelles 2005-08-26

13. 26:41.75 Samuel Wanjiru KEN Bruxelles 2005-08-26

14. 26:49.38 Sammy Kipketer KEN Bruxelles 2002-08-30

15. 26:49.90 Assefa Mezgebu ETH Bruxelles 2002-08-30

16. 26:50.20 Richard Limo KEN Bruxelles 2002-08-30

17. 26:50.67 Albert Chepkurui KEN Bruxelles 2002-08-30

18. 26:51.49 Charles Kamathi KEN Bruxelles 1999-09-03

19. 26:52.23 William Sigei KEN Oslo 1994-07-22

20. 26:52.30 Mohammed Mourhit BEL Bruxelles 1999-09-03

21. 26:52.87 John Cheruiyot Korir KEN Bruxelles 2002-08-30

22. 26:52.93 Mark Bett KEN Bruxelles 2005-08-26

23. 26:53.73 Gebre-egziabher Gebremariam ETH Ostrava 2004-06-08

24. 26:58.38 Yobes Ondieki KEN Oslo 1993-07-10

25. 27:02.62 Abderrahim Goumri MAR Hengelo 2005-05-29

26. 27:02.81 Ibrahim Jeylan ETH Bruxelles 2006-08-25

27. 27:03.20 Moses Masai KEN Bruxelles 2006-08-25

28. 27:04.20 Abraham Chebii KEN Palo Alto 2001-05-04

29. 27:04.45 Bernard Kiprop Kipyego KEN Hengelo 2005-05-29

30. 27:04.54 Felix Limo KEN Bruxelles 2000-08-25

31. 27:04.79 Josphat Ndambiri Muchiri KEN Oita 2006-09-30

32. 27:05.88 Patrick Ivuti KEN Bruxelles 2002-08-30

33. 27:06.17 John Yuda TAN Bruxelles 2002-08-30

34. 27:06.44 Worku Bikila ETH Bruxelles 1995-08-25

35. 27:06.45 Habte Jifar ETH Hengelo 1999-05-30

36. 27:06.59 Ismael Kirui KEN Bruxelles 1995-08-25

37. 27:07.55 Benjamin Maiyo KEN Palo Alto 2001-05-04

38. 27:07.91 Richard Chelimo KEN Stockholm 1993-07-05

39. 27:08.23 Arturo Barrios MEX Berlin 1989-08-18

40. 27:08.42 Martin Irungu Mathathi KEN Kobe 2005-04-24

41. 27:08.96 Moses Mosop KEN Helsinki (WC) 2005-08-08

42. 27:10.34 Josephat Machuka KEN Bruxelles 1995-08-25

43. 27:11.17 Julius Gitahi KEN Kobe 1998-04-26

44. 27:11.62 John Ngugi KEN Bruxelles 1991-09-13

45. 27:12.22 Dejene Berhanu ETH Palo Alto 2005-05-29

MEDALS, MEN'S TRACK EVENTS 800m to 10,000m

Olympic Games, 1964-96 (excluding boycotted Games of 1976 & 1980)

All Medals Gold

Kalenjin 26 8

USA 10 3

Great Britain 8 1

Non-Kalenjin Kenya 7 4

Morocco 7 3

Germany (East & West) 6 1

Ethiopia 5 1

Finland 4 3

New Zealand 4 2

Tunisia 4 1

For those who don't know, the Kalenjin are a tribe in Kenya who make up 11% of the Kenyan population. The greatest concentration of athletic talent in the world.

Interesting #'s, thanks!

But I think the Ethiopians are just as talented, if not more so. They have just had more strife and famines than Kenya, and did not get any sort of national program together until more recently, while the Kenyans had a better system for ID'ing and cultivating talent for longer.

I find these arguments about genetics and talent extremely tedious.

You can show all the statistics you want. Our society has been changing in the past 20 years to a more sedentary, fast food eating culture. I don't know what the statistics are for obesity and lack of fitness in America and Europe, and I don't really care. I just want to see more young runners become inspired by people like Ryan Hall.

Do you remember Ryan Hall? he ran a good half.

White boys can run under 13 for 5000 under 27 for 10000 and under 60 for the half.

To believe in genetic superiority is just another form of racial prejudice.

How is it Racial?

No one is saying this race or that race is better at distance running

Your confused.

Excuse me, lots of people have that idea.

talent is hard work wrote:

Excuse me, lots of people have that idea.

I agree with you on that one. Because that IS what I am saying. But I am NOT saying that non-East/North Africans can't occasionally come up with someone almost as talented as the best East/North Africans. They can. It's just happens a lot less.

Same with sprinting: people of West African heritage tend to be the most talented sprinters ON THE AVERAGE. I mean if you can't agree with that, then I can only imagine the convoluted reasoning you would need to come up with to refute it. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule, like Jeremy Wariner. I don't know why people are afraid of facts. Men, on the average are better at sports than women. BUT....of course there are exceptions. Paula Radcliffe can beat 99.999% of men at the marathon, and there are women that are 10x more naturally strong weight lifters than someone like Bill Rodgers ever could have been.

People with genetic backgrounds from different parts of the globe ARE different. It's an inarguable fact. Recently scientists looked at the mithcondrial DNA of people with ancestors from different parts of the globe, and lo and behold, people from warmer climates had mitochondria that was very efficient at producing energy, but not so good at producing heat (If your climate is wam, there is no advantage to producing heat well). And people whose ancestors came from colder climates had mitchondria that was not so efficient at producing energy, but efficient at producing heat (which would be an advantage in a cold climate). So.....whatever you take from such a study, there is NO denying one thing: a person who has a genetic heritage from one part of the globe is likely to have genetic differences from a person whose ancestors came from another part of the globe.

And do you find it interesting that peoples whose ancestors come from warmer climates (oh say, like Africa) have mitochondria that is very efficient at producing energy?? Hmmm.....sounds advantagous for distance running to ME at least.

(but again, that doesn't mean that a Ryan Hall couldn't be born with other or similar genetic advantages on par with what many top Africans are born with. There are always exceptions to the norm. But the norm is : the best East Africans are generally more talented than the best non-Africans)

Excepting comments by Marius and maybe a couple of others, a lot of this is freaking hillarious. Consider what they have at Mammoth Lakes (besides Vigil, Larsen, Mahon, and support staff):

The previous #1 ranked female distance runner in the world (Deena, now at #4)

The Olympic Silver Medalist in the marathon

The second fastest US marathoner of all time (and faster than all the high mileage supermen from the 70's-80's).

The 6th fastest half marathoner of all time (NOT just US)

You COULD say that those folks are on to something. And of that group, the ones with the most spectacular performances or highest rankings internationally are NATVE BORN AMERICANS.

A rational person might expect people to ask about what people in this group are doing to get those performances. But, instead, what we see is people arguing why we can't. Perhaps they don't want to know the answer:

People with more talent who work harder (which is what Deena did).

apparently Talent is hard work, doesn't have reading comprehention skills.

I don't think anyone on here is saying that genetic make up is the ONLY factor, but it is certainly a big factor is how you perform.

One of the reasons Shaq O'Neal is so good at basketball is due to his genetic make up. Not the only reason, but a big contributing factor to his success.

You can try to paint people as racists or nazis. But in your idocy you are ignoring the mounds and mounds of evidence.

Remember one of the first rules of the scientific method is observation. I observe that people that are of small stature are better distance runners than people that weight over 250 lbs. Is that a cultural bias?

Lance is right for the most part. There are difference in structure of intelligence around the globe, which is genetically based - the brain is a physical organ. That's why some groups of people have higher percentages of people good at computation, others are more creative and have better divergent thinking skills and so on. This type of truth makes people more nervous than banter about athletics.

Yes, there are whites who have the abilities of E. Africans, but the disinterest in the sport in the West makes the dominance of E. Africans (and N. Africans) larger than it would be if whites in general had any interest in being distance runners. I agree with what I read in a post here a couple of years ago, in that if track were again 'big' in Europe, if it became big in the US, you'd have a fair number of guys challenging the Africans and winning races, but the Africans would still hold a majority of the top spots in the 5 & 10. The 'whites' would probably dominate the 800 and 1500 - look at how they do now with little participation. The marathon? Well, we see a lot of Africans show up for the cash races, but in championships, it seems to be whoever is "hot" that day.

People bring up Wariner, and to a lesser extent, Andrew Rock. That's valid. Also consider how many Wariners - and how many white guys who'd have been great at the 100 or 200 - have never bothered to compete or were never recruited because they are told they can't do it - even when exhibiting talent. It's worse than the NFL combines, where no matter how well a white guy does in the tests, even when outperforming all blacks competing to be, say, receivers or cornerbacks, he'll be ignored because it's believed the black is better - even when he's slower and less agile. It's amusing to see how well social conditioning works. Same goes for distance running the last 15 - 20 years. The sport was dying out in Europe at the time Moorcroft hit 13:00, Cram running 3:46, etc. If participation hadn't died out over there, there is little doubt you'd see 12:45 guys or faster from Europe. Soccer was always King, but then it became God, along with people getting just plain lazier.

I agree with you on that one. "Because that IS what I am saying". But I am NOT saying that non-East/North Africans can't occasionally come up with someone almost as talented as the best East/North Africans. They can. It's just happens a lot less.

___________________________________________________________

Lance-alot-

Your not saying that you believe that the black race is better at distance running. Surely you know the incredible variation. Im sure the West Africans are not going to produce many great distance runners

I agree with a lot of what you wrote.

I too believe that if a lot of whites were actually "serious" you'd see 10 Mottrams and guys even better. But the E. and N. Africans have a higher percentage of talented people in their populations. Your idea on the 800/1500 might be right on. Even though more Africans gun for the top spots in those events, there are still a fair number of whites who do quite well. One thing I rarely see people comment on is how much slower, overall, Europeans are in middle and long distance running than they were in say the mid 80's. A lot more guys were going sub 13:00 then, faster 1500 guys, etc. Now you have guys like Marius who come off as trying to 'guard' their "spot" by making everyone believe they are the pinnacle for Europeans, that Kenyans are magical and so on. Maybe because they don't want some other Euro to run sub 13:00.

It will take more than just Hall to get things going. Teg and Webb need to step up and lay down consistent fast times and good finishes. I'm not Ritz is really in their league.

A half marathon performance is by far a much better predictor of a marathon performance than a 5K or 10K. The adaptation for racing at a 4:30-4:45 half/marathon pace is quite different than 4:05-4:20(5K/10K) pace. Some world-class 5Ks go out in 4:05 for the first mile, imagine what that is going to feel like if you are barely a 4 minute miler.

Granted, Hall could probably run a 13:15 5K or 27:20 10K right now off of endurance, but it is unrealistic to think he can/will go anywhere close to a sub-13 or sub 27 as some have suggested. Forget about the conversion charts, Hall is going to have to do a lot more anaerobic training to reach his potential on the track and I don't see that happening in the next two years. However, it is very realistic to suggest Hall can run a 2:07 spring marathon since; not does his half marathon suggest it, but his ability to handle the training as well. (The key to being a great marathoner is the ability to handle the training requirements w/o getting injured.)

I would assume Hall will try to get a 10K WC qualifier this summer, which he will have to do w/o a major disruption to his Olympic marathon trials prep. Even with his USR in the half marathon, getting top three in the US trials is not going to be a cake walk. I still say he will have to contend with KK who has run a 2:07 coming off of an injury and Meb, the Olympic 2004 Olympic silver medalist. And, don't count out Culpepper and forget what Ritz did in NY, that was an anomaly, he is going to run a great Marathon the next time out.

Accept for Bill Rogers, it use to be if you were the US top marathoner, you were one of our top 3 10K guys as well. That’s not necessarily the case anymore. Making the US WC or Olympic team in the 10K will be a tall order. By this summer, the US will have about 4-5 guys who can run 27:20x 10k.

You can't serve two masters; I know Rod Dixon did it successfully, but like Geb and Tegat, the faster he ran in the marathon, the slower ran on the track.

The East Africans are gifted yes, but so are African Americans when it comes to basketball, but the last 2 NCAA MVPs and 2x NBA MVPs are Caucasian. There are far two many statistical outliers to say race & talent is the answer. Culture, tradition and hard work play a part in answering the question, but there is no one deterministic factor; running fast times is not uniquely the province of Africans.

We are still shaking off the effects of the 1980 Olympic boycott; T&F only takes center stage ever 4 years and guys like Craig Virgin, Salazar, Steve Scott, Rudy Chapa were in their prime in 1980 and while they continued to run fast times through out the 80s, they missed their opportunity to inspire the next generation. This was not helped by the fact that a few writers decided to make Jim Ryun, Tim Danielson, Gerry Lindgren and Jeff Nelson who all experienced their greatest success at young age, the poster children for not training hard at a young age, while at the same time, the Africans expected to have their greatest success at a young age and raising a family by their mid 20s.

Americans on average are just getting back to we were we where nearly 2-3 decades ago, when we were on par with the Africans. The Africans improved greatly, the reasons why they improved are fairly obviously (talent, better training, hard work, large number of participants and money.) However, their improvement at one point seemed insurmountable, only when compared to how the US was digressing. We had 3 guys go under 1:44 in one race at the 1984 Olympic trials; run 1:44 and nowadays you will win any race on US soil. We had about 5 milers of Webb's caliber in the early 80s. Jim Ryun ran a 3:51 mile in 1967. We had more sub-8:15 steeple chasers in the early 80s than we do now. Lincoln just broke the 21 year old SC record last year. Guys like Padilla and Spivey, who you rarely even hear about are still on our top-10 list is several events. There are no guys from two decades ago still on the Kenyan or Ethiopian top 10 list.

(Plain a simple, there has been an inverse relationship over the last 20 years between US distance running and that of the Africans.) If you take our top times form 20 years ago; E.g.; if you take Dick Beardsley's 2:08 marathon, Mark Nenow's 27.20 10K or Salazar's 13:11 5K, Brian Diemer's 8:13 SC or Todd Harbor's 3:50 mile and add a modest 5% improvement...we would be right there with the Africans. The fact is, we are just getting back to were we were 2 decades ago. Now, unless you can prove to me that there has been some genetic change to Americans over the last couple of decades, don't ever tell me what we cannot do visa vi the Africans. Obviously there is a wide chasm between being able to do it and doing it, but for right now I am just dispelling the myth of what we can't do or the African superiority. --We just need to do it and guys like Teg, Webb, Ritz and Hall are showing us the way.