Help me break 30mins for 10km!!

Ben Fish, in my opinion, and I'm speaking from experience there are lots of over rated coaches in the UK 'don't believe the hype' would be my advice, after all we have/are in the worst time ever in terms of distance running success. Distance running is very straight forward, you do the work and put in the time and you get results, you might need somebody to bounce new ideas off, and it sounds like you already have that and by the looks of things you are still going in the right direction. Too many people are bothered by the crap of coaching badges, qualifications, associations with certain athletes, it is all about massaging egos.

There is a common thread if you look at the training of Rammalam Brown and other top level guys, common sense simple training, consistency is the key, there are no silver bullets.

Coaching is over rated.

Ben you should easily be able to break 30 and I am pretty sure you will soon enough. My 5k time is exactly the same as yours and I have broken 30 a number of times. When you ran that 4 mile at Chorley under 19 mins you were definitley in 30 min 10k shape. I think the best way to do it is to go out hard. In the 10k's i've seen you race you don't seem to stick your neck out early on. Anyway, my first sub 30 was at Leeds Abbey Dash. I believe this race is coming up fairly soon. Why not shoot for it there? Good luck.

Andy Norman

Ben Fish wrote:

Sun - Long Run 15-20 miles

Mon - Recovery Run 8-10 miles

Tue - am 5 miles pm track session Long Intervals 8

Wed - Medium Long Run 10-12 miles

Thur - am 5 miles pm track session Short Intervals 8

Fri - Recovery Run 8-10 miles

Sat - Race/Session Long Intervals 10

Can you tell more about intervalls?

The current situation of distance running is the end product of many influences, but certainly not coaching on its own.

All I can say to you is that you have obviously never had the opportunity to work with one of the better coaches.

As for Ben still going in the right direction, if you think that his current training is OK then you are sadly mistaken.

Please note I did not mention coaching badges, qualifications or associations. In fact i think that the two or three best coaches in the UK (who do have qualifications, but that isnt relevant) keep a very low profile for a number of reasons - not least of which is that they already have enough to do !

What is the Tilburg race? Is it for the North, England or GB. Ben you are lucky enough to have been injury free for most of your running career unlike myself so baring injuries you will run your aim of a sub 30 minute 10km next year or at the Leeds Abbet Dash if you run it. You do not need to wory about it the time will come as you continue to develop as an athlete, you should really set your sights higher than sub 30 as you have the natural talent to run sub 29 in the next few years.

I would agree with what stormin wrote you need to go out harder and give yourself more of a chance in bigger races/events, like you do in the midweek chorley and horwich 4 milers. As far as coaching we both have the same coach and he has developed you in an amazing way from when you started running at 13/14, he has the credentials and is a top coach he's coached Jason Lobo and still gives Michael Green input who you know has run sub 30 many times and is a top marathon man.

You are renowned down the club for training hard and your schedule works for you.

I will come down the club ben and have a catch up. But work usually gets in the way.

Mike Hammer

Ben also has the same coach as Chris Hart 3km steeple junior international and 5th at this years AAA's with a 8:44 pb he is in healthy hands. The group down at bburn is littered with promising runners young and old.

I have had the opportunity to work with several of the most highly regarded coaches here in the UK, several of whom have been singled out as being very successful and I was not impressed. There are a lot of coaches who have a reputation for being associated with good athletes, but more often than not those athletes have already been developed to a good level, somebody else at the grass roots has put the real groundwork in. I do not believe that as an athlete progresses they need to move on to a high profile coach, whch often seems to be the case here in the UK. Coaching is about a relationship, one that builds over the years, a good coach is one who develops with the athlete.

Who says they were highly regarded ?

It is highly unlikely that a young athlete will stumble upon a coach who is willing and able to look after him in the club situation, who also has the talents to take that athlete to the highest level as a senior. It does happen but it is the exception.

There are few coaches I could fully recommend. One is already too busy, another is in the north, one in the south and one in the west. I doubt that you worked with any of those.

Many others have reputations, often built by their own egos. The better coaches usually keep quiet, as they are in the sport for different reasons.

Yes it is about relations, and good coaches build those relationships. However not all coaches can develop with the athlete for a variety of reasons i.e. their own commitments to job, family etc.

Nick Anderson - terrific guy, terrific coach. Has a good relationship with all of his athletes.

Bud Baldaro - Doing great stuff at Birmingham.

Lets add to the list......

i hear bud coaches anyone he can get his hands on and hopes one works out, chances are eventually one will make it. who has he coached from junior to top class? who does nick anderson coach?

Norman Poole at Sale has continually produced great athletes, from Kevin McKay right through to Michael Rimmer. He would be a valuable source for anyone in the North to tap into. Above all, he is absolutely passionate about the sport and will go to great lengths to help his athletes.

Nick coaches Andy Vernon, Ben Moreau, John Beattie, James Ellis, and some excellent female marathon/road runners plus Louise Damon (who is returning to fitness very nicely after some long term injuries), and a few others. manily based in and around winchester.

Nick is very much a stay out of the limelight and let the results do the talking kind of coach-perosnally Id say its working!

I do wonder what bad experiences some runners have had if their general view is of coaches driven by egos. I've spent many hours in the company of 2 of the current leading UK coaches, (indeed have just spent 2 days visiting 1 for mentoring/advisory stuff) and several of the athletes they coach and if you had a checklist of what you look for in an ideal coach these guys would score extremely highly across the board. There are plenty of others who are, in my view, excellent across a load of technical, interpersonal, 'educational' aspects, and who show no evidence of being driven by ego, fame or greed. Endurance running in the UK in 2006 would be a particularly poor choice to satisfy cravings for fame and greed I think!

I don't think this is a valid forum for picking over individual coaches merits really - if you are in an informed position to know that X or Y is bloody great, then respect their confidences. If you aren't in an informed position, then best not to publicise snippets of gossip or incomplete perspectives.

Yes endurance running is simple, but it ain't that simple to get the absolute best out of yourself solely by running a lot and listening to your body bla bla.

I guess many people on this thread could look at what Ben put up as his 'typical' week and (almost without knowing anything else relevant about him, eg does he sleep 4 hours a night or 11, does he work from his bed or does he spend 10 hour shifts as a hod carrier) suggest why he may not be getting the maximum benefit out of the miles he does. Indeed several have done so.

What each runner can gain from a coach should evolve, and in theory reduce as an athlete gains more experience. I don't hold with this absurd % athlete/% coach that one BMC luminary uses albeit that the trend makes sense. But if coaches are figures of such marginal benefit then why does nearly every elite athlete, when discussing thier training an dcontributory factors to their success, give such a prominent importance to the role of their coach? And don't say it's because they are all gullible young people sucked into mindless dependence on egomaniacs.

Alan Storey, Mark Rowlands, Norman Poole, Phil O'Dell, Nick Anderson, Alex Stanton, Bruce Tulloh, Bud Baldaro, Geroge Gandy, Mick Woods, Mike Down, Andy Hobdell, Bruce Longden, Frank Horwill, Martin Rush, Liam Cain, Lindsey Dunn, Ron Allison, Jimmy Hedley, Glen Grant, Jock Anderson, Conrad Milton, John Nuttal

Just a few coaches in the UK who might know how to train an athlete to a sub 30 min 10km. Most well known but there must be dozens of others operating within the club structure who have experience of coaching this level of athlete.

coaches union wrote:

Alan Storey, Mark Rowlands, Norman Poole, Phil O'Dell, Nick Anderson, Alex Stanton, Bruce Tulloh, Bud Baldaro, Geroge Gandy, Mick Woods, Mike Down, Andy Hobdell, Bruce Longden, Frank Horwill, Martin Rush, Liam Cain, Lindsey Dunn, Ron Allison, Jimmy Hedley, Glen Grant, Jock Anderson, Conrad Milton, John Nuttal

Just a few coaches in the UK who might know how to train an athlete to a sub 30 min 10km. Most well known but there must be dozens of others operating within the club structure who have experience of coaching this level of athlete.

Jimmy passed away a few years ago.

Thanks, tho' poss worth qualifying your list to mention that Jimmy Hedley is no longer alive; and of the several (about 6) listed who are either FT or PT contracted with UKA to work with specific UKA-supported athletes, I doubt they have much capacity to take on new athletes particularly if not in their area. But that said, at least 1 UKA FT coach is extremely helpful to runners who in performance terms are not close to what his professional role is focused on.

But I'd agree with your point that the idea that UK endurance coaching has massively declined in quality is not supported by the list above. Most of the guys you list aren't primarily about recruiting youngsters (or recruiting at all), I think most of their coaching is focused on age 18+ (some exceptions, I know), so they are applying their skills with the smaller talent pool that is still in the sport at that age group.

"Help me break 30 mins for 10km!!"

Ok but I can't pace you past 2k, after that you are on your own.

Bud works mostly with athletes at the University. Not many kids at Birmingham Uni so that could explain why he doesn't deal with a huge number of kids!

He does have huge input into a large number of young athletes while not trying to pinch them from their coaches.

(I guess it's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. If he took on a load of younger athletes as well as his uni guys he'd be accused of poaching from local coaches. He doesn't do that so he gets accused of not developing youngsters because 'You hear that...)

Bud has coached a long list of very good athletes from Uni age onwards.

He has also coached a huge number of crap to mediocre ones and helped them to move their game on.

He also gives a heck of a lot of athletes input without coaching them (Paula had a long conversation with Bud before her marathon debut in 2002. So she thinks he has something to offer.)

This isn't 'what I hear'. It's based on having known Bud more than 14 years, having worked with him on young athlete camps, seen him on elite athlete camps, seen the way senior athletes and coaches respect him, and having been coached by him for the past 3-4 years.

I think you're viewing Bud's attitude the wrong way around. He works dog hard, and is willing to help as many people as he can. Not the same as 'bud coaches anyone he can get his hands on and hopes one works out'.

OK here is a 26 week program that will get you a sub 30:00 by the end of next spring.

Weeks 1-12: Base Period (sample week)

Mon: am 5 miles easy pm 10 miles easy + 6 x 100 strides

Tue: am 5 miles easy pm 45-60 min tempo run

Wed: am 5 miles easy pm 10 miles easy

Thu: am 5 miles easy pm 10 miles easy + 6 x 100 strides

Fri: am 5 miles easy pm 4 x 3000 w 2 min recovery

Sat: am 5 miles easy pm 10 miles easy

Sun: 15-20 miles easy

(105-110 miles per week)

Weeks 13-20: Quality (sample week)

Mon: am 4 miles easy pm: 8 miles easy + strides

Tue: am 4 miles easy pm: Threshold Work (see below)

Wed: am 4 miles easy pm: 8 miles easy

Thu: am 4 miles easy pm: 8 miles easy + strides

Fri: am 4 miles easy pm: VO2 Max Intervals (see below)

Sat: am 4 miles easy pm: 8 miles easy + strides

Sun: 15 miles easy

Threshold examples: (near 15k-20k pace)

30-35 min Tempo run

2 x 5k w 3 min rest

3 x 2 mile w 2 min rest

6 x 1 mile w 1 min rest

VO2 Max examples: (near 5k pace)

10 x 800 w 400 jog (2 sets if necessary)

8 x 1000 w 500 jog ""

6-7 x 1200 w 600 jog ""

5 x 1600 w 800 jog ""

(87 miles per week)

Weeks 21-26: Sharpening (sample week)

Mon: am 3-4 miles easy pm: Threshold Work (see above)

Tue: am 3-4 miles easy pm: 6-8 miles easy

Wed: am 3-4 miles easy pm: Speed Work (see below)

Thu: am 3-4 miles easy pm: 6-8 miles easy

Fri: am 3-4 miles easy pm: VO2 Max work (see above)

Sat: am 3-4 miles easy pm: 6-8 miles easy

Sun: 12-13 miles easy incorporating 8 x 100-150m strides

Speed Work Examples: (at mile to 3k pace)

24 x 200 w 200 jog

12 x 400 w 400 jog

8 x 600 w 600 jog

(70-75 miles per week)

Work in 1-2 races (10k to HM) in the base period, another 2 or 3 (5k - 15k) in the quality phase and every other weekend in the sharpening phase - make sure to get in a few 3k or 5k's.