Cram VS Aouita

Smarm wrote:Also, the fact Aouita , who had barely broken 1:44, was one of the favourites for the 800m shows just what a weak final it actually was, despite all the sub 1:44 runners on paper. A number of athletes could have won that year if they had been in shape, injury free, or as Ereng actually did, 'made their breakthrough'

no

you don't seem to understand peaking

aouita's intrinsic run in final was ~ 1'42.83 & if he'd been uninjured, in shape to run ~ 1'42-flat in a 1-off

he wouda been a worthy winner

A fit and confident Cram would have walked the double in 88 and would never lose to Aouita over 800

is that a joke ???

cram was nowhere near 1'42.83 shape after '86

& considering aouita's uninjured shape in games wouda been in a 1-off, ~ 1'42-flat, there is no way a fit/uninjured cram was going to beat that outside of '85/'86

Coevett wrote:

The Reality wrote:

The world athletics champs in 1983 was actually a bigger athtletics sporting stage than either of the heavily boycotted olmypics of 1980 or 1984.

It's true to an extent, but they were also missing Seb Coe (ill health) and Ovett wasn't at his best (and ran a poor race - his own fault, but likely due to lack of confidence after all the injuries).

In Moscow you had the East Germans and Russians on home turf, with all the special advantages that it brought, enabling Kirov and Straub to run their greatest ever races, likely impossible outside of the Eastern Bloc.

Just watch the Mile race where Steve Ovett obliterated Scott and the rest just a week before Moscow if you think it mattered. And why do people always point to 80 and 84 as 'boycott years' and not 76, when great African runners were missing?

1976, Boit may have influenced the 800m medals, the 1500m would not have changed because the only good African was Bayi and he was ill with malaria. The 5,000m and 10,000m might have been different if the likes of Yifter were present.

No, Aouita was just under 1 year older than Cram. Aouita was born in November 1959, Cram in October 1960.

No, Aouita had already won the 'Islamic Games' in 1980, competing in both the 800m and 1500m. His stories regarding running 4 minute miles on the beach in his flipflops as an untrained teen are.... bullshit.

He was running on the European circuit in 81 and 82. In 1983, approaching his mid-twenties, he moved to Italy, where as you know, blood doping was rife amongst all athletes. Suddenly, he started running extraordinary times, but could only manage the bronze in a depleted world championship final. In 1984, less than 2 seasons after being a 1500m hack, he suddenly acquires the ability to be at the top of the rankings in 1500m to 5000m.

You forgot to mention that on the morning of that 85 race in Nice against Cram, he elected for Shredded Wheat as opposed to his customary Rice Crispies, and was consequently unable to clear his bowels properly until after the race. On my calculations, that counted for at least 1.5, bringing this theoretical time that night down to a 3:24.62. That aint slow!!!

calculo wrote:

is that a joke ???

cram was nowhere near 1'42.83 shape after '86

Are you for real?

Cram ran 1:43.42 in 88 when he was coming back from injury. That was the 3rd best time of the year. Cram was clearly coming back into form in the run up to 88. He absolutely destroyed Tom McKean at the AAA 800m trials running low 1:44. He opened up a 20 meter gap or so on McKean just down the home straight. He ran his 1:43 the next week in the fastest race of the year, clearly running into peak form with the Games still a month away. A few days later he ran a 3:30 1500m. If he hadn't gotten injured again he would have been in 1:42/3:3:29 shape again for Seoul.

I don't understand peaking? Are you the same Calculo from the other day who claimed Ovett was at his best after winter trsining in 78, months before the Euros?

And how can you extrapolate a 1:42.00 for Aouita from 1:45/44 rounds?? Cruz ran 1:43 rounds in 84 and couldn't break Coe's 1:41.73. Coe ran better rounds than Aouita and wasn't close to his 1:41 shape.

You used to talk some sense here, aside from constantly trashing Coe, but lately you've gone a bit daft.

If Aouita was capable of running 3:26 why did he have a problem keeping up with Cram running 3:29 in the first sub 3:30?

can't you read ???

that's what i wrote

i don't care what unknown titles he won before '82

bottom line is that he was a rubbish 3'37 guy in '82, thrashed by 2s by maree

aouita was on nobodies radar in '83

then he got serious

with nothing clockings

no threat & no name

until getting serious in '83

as in britain

toxoplasmosis +ve !

he got serious with training

is this a joke ???

utter rubbish

only guy missing was a toxoplasmosis +ve

otherwise best 1500 field since '68

showing what hard training can enhance huge natural talent

you are hugely outta your depth

calculo wrote:

aouita's '88 ability was also incredible !!!

in 800 final, after rounds on a bum leg so heavily strapped it looked liked he was due an amputation !!!, he ran 1'44-flat in final

not only was he fatigued after rounds for final but that injury couda only got progressively worse with the rounds, so to run 1'44.06 with it was incredible !!!

( he'd run 1'44.79 semi !!! )

even more incredible, he ran ~ 9.5m wide on bends !!!

( & that's not generous )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkNMiXzUqcg

-> route-1 time of ~ 1'44.06 * ( 800 / 809.5 ) =

1'42.83

& like i said, that's with fatigue of rounds & with a terrible leg injury getting progressively worse which finished him for the meet after this run

uninjured, in a 1-off, ideal paced 800 that day, i have 0 doubt he was in 1'42-flat shape for games before that late-injury & 1'42.0 is not generous either...

Putting strapping on your leg does not prove injury. Putting lots of strapping on your leg does not prove the injury is worse still!

There is no way of measuring the extent an injury would effect an athlete's time and performance. Often athletes compete with niggles. The fact he ran 4 rounds and won bronze would indicate that the injury wasn't as debilitating as you imply. He knew he was down to run the 1500, where he would have been a bigger favourite, so the idea he continued to run on a 'serious' injury (as you claim) through 4 rounds of the 800, where he had less chance of winning, is an unlikely decision that makes little sense.

It is much more the case that he picked up a niggle in his hamstring before the first 800 heat and strapped it as a precaution to stop it getting worse. He didn't have to exert himself unduly in the qualifying rounds (1:49.7, 1:45.2, 1:44.7), and thus lined up for the final with a very good medal shot. Obviously he had to run 'all out' in the final, and it was this exertion that probably aggravated the injury further, forcing him to pull out of the 1500m. Indeed, neither the UK or US commentators of the race suggested that Aouita was anything but a serious danger in the race.

And to simply take off 0.8 for 'an injury' (and rounds) we know little about is ridiculous.

Aouita knew the 800 was going to be 4 rounds and for the 5000m WR holder, he would have had the training base to withstand those rounds and not reach the final, "tired". As has been proven to you time and time again, most athletes reach a peak at the end of a series of 3 or 4 races.

Your suggestion he ran an 'ungenerous 9.5m' on the bends is also nonsense.

You can't even see him for most of the 2nd bend, as the camera is focused on the 3 at the front who are 12m+ ahead of Aouita. What you do see of Aouita is about 4.5 secs (35.5 - 40.0) on the bend, where he is inside the line with lane 2. If he'd been in that position for the entire bend, then we're talking 2.75m. If you watch a grainy US video of the race where you see more of Aouita on that 2nd bend, it shows he is not as wide for the first 60m or so. It's more like an extra 2m on that bend, 2.5m at an absolute push.

On the 3rd bend he is also inside the line or on it for the entire bend, and with a few strides more towards the middle of lane 1. If he ran the entire bend on the line with lane 2, that would be 2.91m. He runs less than that. Somewhere between 2.5m and 2.75m.

On last bend he looks like he's about 20cm wide of the line into lane 2 as an average for the bend. He probably starts closer to the line, but at the end of the bend he is about 30cm wide of the line. I'd say he runs about 3.6m extra on that last bend.

2.5m + 2.75m + 3.6m = 8.85m. That is being generous. Certainly not 9.5m, probably closer to 8.5m.

1:44.06 / 808.85 = 1:42.92

c.200m splits of ~ 24.8, 26.0, 25.8, 27.4 (last 100m - 13.6)

Or laps of 50.8/53.2

And this is what Aouita said to the New York Times in an interview from 21.9.88: -

''I feel perfectly fit and rested,'' Aouita said several days ago. ''I am very confident in my condition, and you'll be seeing the best Aouita ever at these Games.''

So, according to Aouita himself, he was in the best form of his life (at the 800 and 1500 at least), the week before the final of the 800m.

He then ran his 4 races on the 23rd - 26th of September.

In the first 2 rounds he ONLY had strapping on his LEFT leg, in the semi it was totally surrounding his right leg as well! Are we really to believe that he had terrible injuries to both hamstrings?

I am not suggesting that Aouita didn't have an injury as such, but I am questioning your ability to put an exact time dividend on the injury. You have no way of knowing how serious it was and if it affected him at all in the final.

There have been plenty of sports stars in the past who have competed and won at the very highest level with strapping to their muscles. Often they are capable of carrying on regardless, except the effort to do so sometimes prevents them from continuing once the event is over. e.g. Coe in Zurich 1984.

It is also typical of you to suggest that Aouita running a 1:44.06 in a championship after 3 rounds and running an extra 8.85m is worth 1:42 flat on a 1 off rested circuit race, but that when Coe ran 1:43.64 in a similar championship scenario after 3 rounds, and who ran a greater extra distance (9.5m at least, possibly nearer 10m) than Aouita, you claim he was not in 1:42 flat shape! Total biased.

And Coe's splits were - 51.3/52.3; 24.5, 26.8, 26.7, 25.6 (13.0)

1:43.64 / 809.5 = 1:42.42

So Aouita has 0.8 secs taken off for being tired after rounds, but Coe wasn't tired enough to take 0.4secs off?

In fact your made up numbers game implies Aouita in 88 was faster than Coe ever was, as you claim he never really ran sub 1:42.

Nevermind Coe ran faster than Aouita's 1:44.06 in Seoul at least 10 times! But no, Aouita's 1:44.06 intrinsically made him the faster over 2 laps! That makes perfect logical sense. A bit like how a 1:44.9 for Ryun over 880 can be converted to 1:38.9 ability for 800m! Utter nonsense, of course.

As usual your analysis is skewed and exaggerated.

And where and when exactly did Aouita run this 46.8 relay leg you claimed he ran on one of the threads on here a few days ago?

You have completely made that up. There is no documented evidence of Aouita ever running a 4 x 400m in competition.

He 'allegedly' ran a 46.9 (not 46.8) in a training run sometime in 1981! No venue or date given or known. So this can hardly be given much credence.

Aouita ran a great race in Seoul, and I'm sure in the right sort of race he had the potential to have run at least the 1:42.8 that Cram ran. But to claim he was in 1:42 flat shape (or faster) at the start of the 88 Olympics PURELY BASED on extrapolating 2.0 + secs for extra distance (which you over exaggerated), injury (which you over exaggerated) and tiredness from rounds (which you always over exaggerate) is laughable and shoddy analysis.

You really are a fool. So Britain had a culture of blood doping on the basis of your groundless accusations against one individual - Coe, and yet when Aouita moves to a country that had a well documented and proven culture of blood doping at the time and suddenly turns into an elite runner, it's because 'he got serious'.

He was earning his living from running on the European circuit in 81 and 82, albeit not very successfully at all, and his sudden transformation at nearly 24 is down to just 'getting serious' in 83???

Yeah. I think you mean getting serious with the blood doping.

His transformation is far less plausible than Mo Farah's. At least Mo was an established world class runner, if not quite at the level to win medals in global championships. As you admit, Aouita was a nobody in 82.

Mo went from being a regular finalist to a gold medal winner in the space of two years after joining a team that has a cloud of suspicion over it. Everybody assumes he takes PEDs. Aouita was little more than a club runner until 83, when he switches to a country/culture where it would be unusual NOT to blood dope at the time, and suddenly turns into perhaps the greatest runner in history in the space of 2 years. Not only that, but after retirement he is chased out of his Australian coaching role after encouraging his athletes to take PEDs on the basis that it was the 'only way to win'.

Can you imagine if Mo Farah in 10 years time becomes a national coach and is forced to resign after claims from athletes he was encouraging them to take PEDS? Would ANYBODY have any doubts that he was a drug cheat himself?

Seems like your hatred of Coe is so much you would give a free pass to a cheat just because he is one of Coe's rivals as the best middle-distance runner of the period, or ever. Shame on you.

Deano, you will not get a serious dicussion with Ventolin (for the posters who are not here for very long: now calculo, he was banned). I don't say anything what he writes is stupid (I'm not refering to this topic here). But the biggest problem with him is just that he seems not to be able to have an discussion (and for sure that he exaggerates enormously and his putting 400m times out of his... to predict a possible 5000m and...). When he was proved to be wrong (several times) he just can't say an easy sentence like: "OK, you were right, I was wrong."

To the topic: This interview is from the day before the 800m finale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPUf_eV1CoQ

Two possibilities:

1. He is a very good actor and plays a bad game with his opponents.

2. He has had serious problems.

I tend to the 2nd one. Nobody from us can say if this injury (assumed it wasn't an fake) had any effect on his performance. But looking on this video, he mentally definitely wasn't at the top. And he didn't run the 1500m semis. What could be the reason for this other than serious problems? To measure this in tenths exactly for sure is pure speculation.

A "a depleted world championship final" - Helsinki, 1983, 1500m. Huh? Coe was absent, but who else? Gonzalez, yes, but did he ever make an Olympic Final or World Championships Final? Was Spivey a factor yet? I think Spivey (circa 3:51:xx) finished second to Scott (3:49:xx) in Oslo some weeks earlier. Frank O'Mara, Ray Flynn, Pierre Deleze, Stefano Mei, Graham Williamson and Sydney Maree did not advance to the final. That World Championships final did have Cram, Scott, Aouita, Ovett, Abascal, Walker, Boit... and, to me, anyway, was a quality field.

St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote:

That World Championships final did have Cram, Scott, Aouita, Ovett, Abascal, Walker, Boit... and, to me, anyway, was a quality field.

https://web.archive.org/web/20111109055031/http://www2.iaaf.org:80/results/past/WCH83/index.html

It was one of the best 1500m finals ever (on paper, the race should be analysed by others). This is very close to beeing a fact. Mr (?) Farahcoecramovettelliottmoorcroftfosterbedfordwoodersongeorge is in the same league as the one he criticises so harsh here, just not able to say an easy sentence like "OK, I was wrong" when profed so. What a childish behaviour.

I can't confirm it but I think Spivey ran faster than 3:51:00 for the 1983 Dream Mile in Oslo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGWVMXBdXuM

Full text:

Coach told athletes to use drugs

By Scott Gullan

February 18, 2006

AUSTRALIAN athletes were ordered to take performance enhancing drugs by former national distance coach Said Aouita.

While Aouita, the former Morocco Olympic 5000m champion, was investigated over drug allegations in 2002, The Saturday Daily Telegraph can now reveal that one of the key witnesses in that inquiry had been intimidated into not speaking out.

Melissa Rollison, a medal prospect in the 3000m steeplechase at next month's Commonwealth Games, has lifted the lid on one of the darkest periods in the sport by revealing that Aouita urged her to take human growth hormone (HGH) while on a training camp in the US in 2003.

"He talked about it [drugs] every day," she said. "We had to go to America because that's where you get HGH and all this stuff.

"I said right at the start that I wasn't interested and he was like: 'Everyone else is on it so why wouldn't you want to?'.

"I said I wanted to make it the proper way, but he then tried to convince me that HGH wasn't illegal. He said it couldn't be tested and that because my hormones were so low it would just bring me up to the normal person."

Aouita's two-year stint as a national coach ended in 2004 amid controversy after Victorian athlete Mark Fountain, who was on the camp in Albuquerque with Rollison, raised the drug allegations in a letter sent to the Australian Sports Commission.

The Moroccan, arguably the greatest middle-distance runner in history, was later cleared after an investigation by the ASC, Athletics Australia and the Australian Institute of Sport.

But Rollison said she now regretted not backing up Fountain and claimed she had been intimidated and manipulated into keeping quiet.

With the Athens Olympics on the horizon, the junior world record holder panicked when then national coach Keith Connor rang and said if the allegations were true she would be coming home.

"All I was thinking about was the Olympics and I stupidly said, 'No, it's not true'," Rollison said. "But everything he [Fountain] wrote in the report was true. I mean we all sat down and wrote it together.

"I was so stupid and it got him [Fountain] into a lot of trouble, but really he was the smart one who got out of there then. I then sort of convinced myself it was all lies and trusted Said again because he was just so good at convincing you, manipulating you."

Rollison, 22, maintains she didn't take any drugs and became so paranoid that she wouldn't eat or drink anything that she hadn't prepared herself during her time with Aouita.

"I was too scared to eat anything that I hadn't made myself and I kept my drinks in my room," she said.

Fountain was shunned by the authorities after his allegations - which included perceived favouritism by Aouita towards one of the squad members, Commonwealth Games 800m and 1500m runner Suzy Walsham of Sydney.

There is no suggestion that Connor or Walsham were involved with drug use or endorsed Aouita's alleged advocacy of drug use.

Fountain has maintained a low profile since until venturing home for the Commonwealth Games selection trials earlier this month where he qualified for the 1500m.

When contacted by The Saturday Daily Telegraph in Arkansas last night, Fountain said he was glad his story was now being supported by Rollison.

"I think everyone is well aware of what happened and if they want to tell their side of the story then that is great to see," he said.

Aouita fled Australia shortly after the Olympic trials in 2004 and has never returned.

He was recently appointed consultant to Aspire, the Academy for Sports Excellence, in Doha, Qatar.

The Daily Telegraph

St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote:

I can't confirm it but I think Spivey ran faster than 3:51:00 for the 1983 Dream Mile in Oslo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGWVMXBdXuM

He ran 3:50.59

said88 wrote:

St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote:

That World Championships final did have Cram, Scott, Aouita, Ovett, Abascal, Walker, Boit... and, to me, anyway, was a quality field.

https://web.archive.org/web/20111109055031/http://www2.iaaf.org:80/results/past/WCH83/index.html

It was one of the best 1500m finals ever (on paper, the race should be analysed by others). This is very close to beeing a fact. Mr (?) Farahcoecramovettelliottmoorcroftfosterbedfordwoodersongeorge is in the same league as the one he criticises so harsh here, just not able to say an easy sentence like "OK, I was wrong" when profed so. What a childish behaviour.

Well it was depleted in the sense that the two best 1500m runners in the world were absent or not at their best.

I've read that blood doping can improve performance in middle and long distance events by 6%. If we assume that Aouita was taking HGH as well (he divided his time from 83 between Italy and the USA - 'where you have to go to get it'), maybe his times were close to 10% better than they should have been. It would explain ENTIRELY his improvement from circuit also ran 83. It's likely he would have struggled to break 14 minutes for the 5000 and remain a 3:37 1500 and 1:48 800 guy.

The Ovett/Coe reign ended after '81. Neither ranked #1 ever again. They could occasionally turn in a great performance -- Ovett WR, Coe Gold medal -- but they could not dominate over a season ever again. By '83 the torch had been passed to Cram/Aouita.

Coevett wrote:

Well it was depleted in the sense that the two best 1500m runners in the world were absent or not at their best.

I was more reffering to the other thread.