The great 1500m runners you mention operated in is very different world to the one Jakob has faced, especially when we are talking professionalism, sports science, testing and exposure. It is very hard to compare across generations, so it is worth noting this.
For example, did any of the other competitors really know what they were dealing with when they faced Herb Elliot? They probably knew he was good, but they had no idea really and were left in his wake wondering what happened. It was easier to be better than most, they're all basically amateurs anyway. "Good show old boy, but back to my day job now". I'm exaggerating, but you get the point.
Whereas, Jakob has literally had a crosshair on his back in every major race, paid professional teams strategising their race on his, far greater depth, training, stakes and knowledge of your competitors. Jakob provides his competitors certainty, and a default game plan. 1 vs 11 is very hard. As Cram said in an interview with Tim Hutchings, "I would have loved to race against Jakob".
Despite of all this, he has still founds way to dominate and progress the sport forward, single handedly breaking the African reign over the mid-distance / distance events. This is probably his point of difference over the other great runners.
I agree that it's difficult to compare across generations, and I would add that differences apply in the other direction. Very hard for runners in the amateur era to juggle world class training with a day job. Harder to stay injury free or recover from injury with lower quality shoes and less knowledge in sports med than we have today. No anti-gravity treadmills or heart rate monitors back then. Inability to measure lactate during a workout. They didn't have access to videos of every race to study the tendencies of all their rivals. Higher possibility of being surprised by an emerging challenger who comes "out of nowhere." Let's give those champions credit for doing what they did without the enormous advantages runners have now.
I think the stakes were higher before the World Championships got added to the calendar. The pre-1980s greats knew that if they didn't win gold at the Olympics, they would have to wait four years for another shot at a global title. Jakob just had a stretch of five years in a row with a global championship competition in his 20s. None of the greats from previous generations had such an abundance of opportunities.
The greats in any era have a target on their back. It comes with the territory of going into a race as the favorite.
It's inaccurate to say Jakob single handedly broke the African reign. In 2016, Olympic gold and bronze in the men's 1500m were won by non-Africans. Let's not forget the achievements and influence of Centro and Willis. After Jakob's win in Tokyo, Wightman, Kerr, and Hocker have taken turns standing at the top of the podium. It hasn't been just one guy.
None of what I've written is meant to discredit Jakob; just trying to provide more balance in recognizing other great runners who came before him and his contemporaries who have been shining alongside him. Jakob has had a tremendous career, and even if he never gets back to his former level, his place in history as one of the all-timers is secure.
Comparing eras isn't easy but it needs to be pointed out that Snell only raced the 1500 at Tokyo, where he easily won (and in a race in Europe at the end of his farewell tour). He most regularly ran the mile, where he was utterly dominant over the best in his era and was twice the world record holder. His world records and his Olympic title (and Commonwealth Games title) and his supremacy over all contemporary rivals has to put him ahead of Ingebrigtsen in their respective eras. Snell had no contenders for being the best in his time. Jakob does - and he doesn't have the world records at either the mile or 1500, and has "tripped" in a series of global 1500 championship finals.
Snell also dominated in an era when African distance and mid-distance runners were largely absent and hadn’t yet emerged as a force majeure. And he had superior training for his era as Lydiard was way ahead of the curve at that time compared to his contemporaries.
Snell was a phenomenal runner no doubt, who most of us weren’t alive to see, but your points are lacking complete data. Now, if you want to say most of the Africans of the 90s were using Epo, among other performance enhancers, I’ll allow it. If you want to assert, as Nick Willis did, that the super shoes are worth 2 seconds over 4 laps (and subtract another 1-2 for bicarb, etc), then I’ll also accept that.
What JI did for the sport and for training has raised the bar for everyone, even as he never really was a pure “miler.” His range is outstanding, and the 7:17 3000 is just a ridiculous feat. A feat I, also, doubt he is ever able to revisit, although it’s hard to see anyone getting there.
The bar for Ingebrigtsen is the same for all - are they, were they, the undoubted best in their eras. It isn't whether some eras might have been tougher than others.
Yeah saying he's a poor championship racer isn't accurate given his record and hardware - it's just that he's unfortunately one dimensional. If he had a Tim C taking him out like he did in 2021 he'd probably knocking on the door of a legitimate GOAT argument, if he had the ability to run 56.0, 55.8, 55.7 from the front in world finals it would be the same. But unfortunately it's harder than it looks - even with the high volume practice of DL meets and wavelight.
But it is this single-dimension that makes it tough for him in the annuls of great 1500m men, because the guys you mentioned - El G, Morceli, Coe, Elliot were both great time triallers and great racers - especially Morceli at 3.28.86 in 92 and then 3.27.37 in 95 combined with some of the most staggering final laps in formatively slow 1500m finals ever seen (50.62 to win in Stuttgart in 3.34.24 off 1.59.3 at 800m).
I think I agree with you though on 5th spot behind that group. I think he's ahead of Snell as just a 1500m runner and also ahead of Walker. Pretty tight with Cram because Cram was a WR holder (albeit when the WR was much slower) with Cram having the World title and Olympic silver vs the Olympic title and world silvers (sadly no worlds for Cram in 85 when he was at his absolute best). Definitely ahead of Aouita.
End of the day this is rare air and he's in it, he's definitely one of the greatest 1500m of all time and that's not even accounting for his work in the 5000m.
The great 1500m runners you mention operated in is very different world to the one Jakob has faced, especially when we are talking professionalism, sports science, testing and exposure. It is very hard to compare across generations, so it is worth noting this.
For example, did any of the other competitors really know what they were dealing with when they faced Herb Elliot? They probably knew he was good, but they had no idea really and were left in his wake wondering what happened. It was easier to be better than most, they're all basically amateurs anyway. "Good show old boy, but back to my day job now". I'm exaggerating, but you get the point.
Whereas, Jakob has literally had a crosshair on his back in every major race, paid professional teams strategising their race on his, far greater depth, training, stakes and knowledge of your competitors. Jakob provides his competitors certainty, and a default game plan. 1 vs 11 is very hard. As Cram said in an interview with Tim Hutchings, "I would have loved to race against Jakob".
Despite of all this, he has still founds way to dominate and progress the sport forward, single handedly breaking the African reign over the mid-distance / distance events. This is probably his point of difference over the other great runners.
Yours is the opinion of one who knows little of what the sport was like before you were born. In the amateur era competitors knew who were the best and what their competition was like. You should read what Bannister wrote about the race to be the first to break 4 minutes, or Elliott's autobiography. They were in no way casual about what they were doing. It wasn't a version of school sports.
The great 1500m runners you mention operated in is very different world to the one Jakob has faced, especially when we are talking professionalism, sports science, testing and exposure. It is very hard to compare across generations, so it is worth noting this.
For example, did any of the other competitors really know what they were dealing with when they faced Herb Elliot? They probably knew he was good, but they had no idea really and were left in his wake wondering what happened. It was easier to be better than most, they're all basically amateurs anyway. "Good show old boy, but back to my day job now". I'm exaggerating, but you get the point.
Whereas, Jakob has literally had a crosshair on his back in every major race, paid professional teams strategising their race on his, far greater depth, training, stakes and knowledge of your competitors. Jakob provides his competitors certainty, and a default game plan. 1 vs 11 is very hard. As Cram said in an interview with Tim Hutchings, "I would have loved to race against Jakob".
Despite of all this, he has still founds way to dominate and progress the sport forward, single handedly breaking the African reign over the mid-distance / distance events. This is probably his point of difference over the other great runners.
I agree that it's difficult to compare across generations, and I would add that differences apply in the other direction. Very hard for runners in the amateur era to juggle world class training with a day job. Harder to stay injury free or recover from injury with lower quality shoes and less knowledge in sports med than we have today. No anti-gravity treadmills or heart rate monitors back then. Inability to measure lactate during a workout. They didn't have access to videos of every race to study the tendencies of all their rivals. Higher possibility of being surprised by an emerging challenger who comes "out of nowhere." Let's give those champions credit for doing what they did without the enormous advantages runners have now.
I think the stakes were higher before the World Championships got added to the calendar. The pre-1980s greats knew that if they didn't win gold at the Olympics, they would have to wait four years for another shot at a global title. Jakob just had a stretch of five years in a row with a global championship competition in his 20s. None of the greats from previous generations had such an abundance of opportunities.
The greats in any era have a target on their back. It comes with the territory of going into a race as the favorite.
It's inaccurate to say Jakob single handedly broke the African reign. In 2016, Olympic gold and bronze in the men's 1500m were won by non-Africans. Let's not forget the achievements and influence of Centro and Willis. After Jakob's win in Tokyo, Wightman, Kerr, and Hocker have taken turns standing at the top of the podium. It hasn't been just one guy.
None of what I've written is meant to discredit Jakob; just trying to provide more balance in recognizing other great runners who came before him and his contemporaries who have been shining alongside him. Jakob has had a tremendous career, and even if he never gets back to his former level, his place in history as one of the all-timers is secure.
This is all factually correct, but it has to be said that we haven’t had a white guy like Jakob have a stronghold over the event since the days of the Brits in the 80s. No offense to Centro or Willis but nobody for a second thought they were the best (unfortunately due to Kiprop winning a bunch of cheat golds) Jakob was pretty much the best in the world despite his losses statistically. I feel like Kerr was a better example, at least at a championship level.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.