If you took 50 Americans and made them go out in 2,05 pace everybody not named Connor Mantz would crash. If a runner runs fast, it's because he is that good, not because he "puts it all on the line".
He talks a big game as someone who has never touched a marathon podium.
I don't think it's soft versus opportunity. The 2 of the 3 US majors are tactical & the other one is weather dependent. A lot of Japanese marathons are set up to be fast where you just go out at what you think you can handle & try to hang on. I agree that American marathoners would drop some fast times in this setting. I don't agree that it's a soft mindset. It's racing versus time trialing. If it was about being soft then Americans would place a lot worse at majors/Olympics.
Maybe being harsh in calling him a scrub but he's far from a blue chip prospect compared to other athletes who moved up in distance. He never made a world or Olympic team for Canada until the marathon which is a pretty low bar to clear. His PBs - all in super spikes, are 7:49, 13:29 and 27:48.
Again, not saying this to slag him off. Saying it because I think he's right and that he is likely tougher and more driven than most. Respect to him.
He’s done very well for himself off those PBs. Plenty in Europe with those times and they can’t even be full time athletes.
I don't think it's soft versus opportunity. The 2 of the 3 US majors are tactical & the other one is weather dependent. A lot of Japanese marathons are set up to be fast where you just go out at what you think you can handle & try to hang on. I agree that American marathoners would drop some fast times in this setting. I don't agree that it's a soft mindset. It's racing versus time trialing. If it was about being soft then Americans would place a lot worse at majors/Olympics.
Are there non major marathons in the US that could be set up to be a Valencia/seville, with some investment? Flat fast and almost guaranteed perfect weather?
If you took 50 Americans and made them go out in 2,05 pace everybody not named Connor Mantz would crash. If a runner runs fast, it's because he is that good, not because he "puts it all on the line".
I know many runners that are better than Cam Levins why not try? Rory is right😉
I don't think it's soft versus opportunity. The 2 of the 3 US majors are tactical & the other one is weather dependent. A lot of Japanese marathons are set up to be fast where you just go out at what you think you can handle & try to hang on. I agree that American marathoners would drop some fast times in this setting. I don't agree that it's a soft mindset. It's racing versus time trialing. If it was about being soft then Americans would place a lot worse at majors/Olympics.
Are there non major marathons in the US that could be set up to be a Valencia/seville, with some investment? Flat fast and almost guaranteed perfect weather?
Houston is probably the best candidate, but right now most of the pros only race the half as a tuneup for their spring majors. CIM has perfect weather and a fast course but being P2P will never really count at the international level
Are there non major marathons in the US that could be set up to be a Valencia/seville, with some investment? Flat fast and almost guaranteed perfect weather?
Houston is probably the best candidate, but right now most of the pros only race the half as a tuneup for their spring majors. CIM has perfect weather and a fast course but being P2P will never really count at the international level
Exactly this. Houston/CIM/Grandma's the next 3 in line, but each have their issues -- time of year (all 3 really, Houston half centric) + point to point (CIM/Grandma's). I feel like Japan has more professionalized races if that makes sense, whereas a lot of the bigger races in the US are focused on the masses. We just saw 4 Americans run 2:08-flat to 2:10-flat, all going out in 1:03-low minus Reed. Out of those 4, maybe they're all top-50 guys, but maybe Mesfun is the only top-10 guy. Idk what the results would be, but if everyone in the top-50 went out @ 1:03-flat pace I think you'd see a bunch of 2:06-2:09 times. Maybe that's not sub-2:05, but talent/depth is still there, even if most of these runners go to Boston/NYC & we usually see 3-4 Americans in the top-10 @ those races. I don't think anything in here explaining race choice is "soft." There really wasn't much domestic sponsor value for those guys running 2:08-2:10 and finishing in the top-20 but not top-10 @ Seville. There will be Americans who will get paid much more when they run slightly slower at an American major. There isn't much money in the sport. I'm not gonna sit behind my keyboard and judge someone for finishing 8th at Boston with a 2:11 instead of going to Rotterdam and running 2:07 for 18th in a result that gets buried in the news.
Houston is probably the best candidate, but right now most of the pros only race the half as a tuneup for their spring majors. CIM has perfect weather and a fast course but being P2P will never really count at the international level
Exactly this. Houston/CIM/Grandma's the next 3 in line, but each have their issues -- time of year (all 3 really, Houston half centric) + point to point (CIM/Grandma's). I feel like Japan has more professionalized races if that makes sense, whereas a lot of the bigger races in the US are focused on the masses. We just saw 4 Americans run 2:08-flat to 2:10-flat, all going out in 1:03-low minus Reed. Out of those 4, maybe they're all top-50 guys, but maybe Mesfun is the only top-10 guy. Idk what the results would be, but if everyone in the top-50 went out @ 1:03-flat pace I think you'd see a bunch of 2:06-2:09 times. Maybe that's not sub-2:05, but talent/depth is still there, even if most of these runners go to Boston/NYC & we usually see 3-4 Americans in the top-10 @ those races. I don't think anything in here explaining race choice is "soft." There really wasn't much domestic sponsor value for those guys running 2:08-2:10 and finishing in the top-20 but not top-10 @ Seville. There will be Americans who will get paid much more when they run slightly slower at an American major. There isn't much money in the sport. I'm not gonna sit behind my keyboard and judge someone for finishing 8th at Boston with a 2:11 instead of going to Rotterdam and running 2:07 for 18th in a result that gets buried in the news.
Its such a shame there is nothing to rival valencia/Seville bar Chicago maybe. If people want Pbs/Records the Point to points aren't going to cut it. Should not have to travel from America to Europe to get in a rapid marathon.
Ya better to go out at 2:05 pace and blow up to 2:13 over and over. It's well known that an even split or negative split is best. So why go out at a pace that isn't realistic? If someone has run 2:10 it makes no sense to go out at 2:05 pace. Go out at 2:10 pace and negative split, or at best 2:09 pace... Once you negative split and get a new PR you can go out faster next time. American marathoning is doing great right now, regularly getting multiple top 10 performances at Chicago/Boston/New York. Multiple top 10 finishes at the 2024 olympics and 2016 olympics, and one in Tokyo. An American record from Mantz going out in 62:19 first half 62:24 second half, when he went out crazy fast at Boston is when he faded terribly for one maybe his worst ever marathon. You're an idiot if you go out fast in a marathon, it's clearly not the way to run it. The world record at Chicago was a negative split. List goes on and on, positive splitting is not the way to go. If you positive split a PR, you still would have run even faster if you even split or negative split.
Linkletter isn't wrong, at all. The American proof of this is CJ Albertson. He races like those red-lining Japanese, he took risks in racing over and over and it eventually all came together in Chicago last year. Based on his 10K PR, he should be slower than many of his peers at the marathon. Further proving that 10K performance is not a reliable indicator of marathon ability. American runners are simply risk-adverse in the marathon, both in finding opportunity and within the race itself. Which is probably a product of mediocre support and expectations from their environment.
Linkletter isn't wrong, at all. The American proof of this is CJ Albertson. He races like those red-lining Japanese, he took risks in racing over and over and it eventually all came together in Chicago last year. Based on his 10K PR, he should be slower than many of his peers at the marathon. Further proving that 10K performance is not a reliable indicator of marathon ability. American runners are simply risk-adverse in the marathon, both in finding opportunity and within the race itself. Which is probably a product of mediocre support and expectations from their environment.
No he didn't. He just runs his pace when other people don't. When he was leading Boston it wasn't because he went out insanely fast, it's because no one else went with him. First half of Boston is downhill and he split a low 64 that year, pretty much perfect pacing to run a flat 2:10 on that course with even effort distribution. He consistently runs around 2:10 or 64 and change/65 and change half marathon pace, when has he gone out in 63 minutes? I doubt you can find more than one instance of that.
Linkletter isn't wrong, at all. The American proof of this is CJ Albertson. He races like those red-lining Japanese, he took risks in racing over and over and it eventually all came together in Chicago last year. Based on his 10K PR, he should be slower than many of his peers at the marathon. Further proving that 10K performance is not a reliable indicator of marathon ability. American runners are simply risk-adverse in the marathon, both in finding opportunity and within the race itself. Which is probably a product of mediocre support and expectations from their environment.
No he didn't. He just runs his pace when other people don't. When he was leading Boston it wasn't because he went out insanely fast, it's because no one else went with him. First half of Boston is downhill and he split a low 64 that year, pretty much perfect pacing to run a flat 2:10 on that course with even effort distribution. He consistently runs around 2:10 or 64 and change/65 and change half marathon pace, when has he gone out in 63 minutes? I doubt you can find more than one instance of that.