I would say the same thing about Marty Liquori whose career at least rivals Prefontaine's and might have bettered it. I think you could say the same about Craig Virgin's career. But for the latter two we know how their careers played out so we can't create a fantasy ending.
Liquori would have been recognized at any airport. You can't say the same about Pre. Shorter, maybe.
Fourteen years after the last time we had this debate, and you're still suggesting that Marty Liquori was a bigger rock star or legend than Pre was.
Don't get me wrong. I think that Liquori's running career was much more impressive than Pre's, and I think he would be a much more interesting person to spend an evening with. Same with Frank. But they're not the guys that big movie studios make movies about. They're not the guys that high school kids still aspire to be like. They're not the guys that any big shoe companies make advertisements about. There's no big international track meet called "the Liquori Classic" or "the Shorter Classic." There's no landmark called "Liquori's Rock" or "Shorter's Rock" that groupies make pilgrimages to. Steve Prefontaine is a cult figure like Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, Jimi Hendrix, and Janis Joplin. It's not Marty's fault or Frank's fault that they had enough sense to stay alive all these years.
Pre was on the cover of sports illustrated. That is a more important indicator of his legacy than prs or even medals. Were any of the other runners mentioned cover boys like Pre? To classify Pre in the same category as Rupp is nonsense. Could you imagine Rupp on the cover for SI (lol)?
Shorter, Rodgers, Ryun and Liquori also appeared on the cover of Sports Illustrated.
If appearing on that cover was an indicator of legacy then Ryun was arguably better than those others, as he was on that cover at 5 times.
Shorter made that cover once, Rodgers twice (once in the background of the Shorter cover) and Liquori and Pre once.
If one measures legacy by actual athletic results, Ryun arguably has a better legacy based on his numerous world records and Olympic silver medal. Shorter has gold and silver Olympic medals but no records. Pre and Liquori were good but also rans.
That was when it seemed like general sports coverage of (and interest in) distance running was greater than it is now.
Even if making the cover of Sports Illustrated was still possible and a big thing, I doubt a US distance runner would ever make that cover now. Maybe an outside chance if a US woman won a gold medal (while setting a world record) at the LA Olympics.
Liquori would have been recognized at any airport. You can't say the same about Pre. Shorter, maybe.
Fourteen years after the last time we had this debate, and you're still suggesting that Marty Liquori was a bigger rock star or legend than Pre was.
Don't get me wrong. I think that Liquori's running career was much more impressive than Pre's, and I think he would be a much more interesting person to spend an evening with. Same with Frank. But they're not the guys that big movie studios make movies about. They're not the guys that high school kids still aspire to be like. They're not the guys that any big shoe companies make advertisements about. There's no big international track meet called "the Liquori Classic" or "the Shorter Classic." There's no landmark called "Liquori's Rock" or "Shorter's Rock" that groupies make pilgrimages to. Steve Prefontaine is a cult figure like Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, Jimi Hendrix, and Janis Joplin. It's not Marty's fault or Frank's fault that they had enough sense to stay alive all these years.
Red herrings everywhere. Without Nike the movie never sees the light of day, and the Pre Classic never gets an elevation in status until decades later.
Pre was on the cover of sports illustrated. That is a more important indicator of his legacy than prs or even medals. Were any of the other runners mentioned cover boys like Pre? To classify Pre in the same category as Rupp is nonsense. Could you imagine Rupp on the cover for SI (lol)?
Shorter, Rodgers, Ryun and Liquori also appeared on the cover of Sports Illustrated.
If appearing on that cover was an indicator of legacy then Ryun was arguably better than those others, as he was on that cover at 5 times.
Shorter made that cover once, Rodgers twice (once in the background of the Shorter cover) and Liquori and Pre once.
If one measures legacy by actual athletic results, Ryun arguably has a better legacy based on his numerous world records and Olympic silver medal. Shorter has gold and silver Olympic medals but no records. Pre and Liquori were good but also rans.
That was when it seemed like general sports coverage of (and interest in) distance running was greater than it is now.
Even if making the cover of Sports Illustrated was still possible and a big thing, I doubt a US distance runner would ever make that cover now. Maybe an outside chance if a US woman won a gold medal (while setting a world record) at the LA Olympics.
How many times did Shorter beat Pre? How many times did Shorter beat me?
They were both great in their own way.
You have a point but it’s not an apples and oranges comparison. Shorter is objectively better than Prefontaine. It’s not even debatable. I would refrain from using words like “vastly” better because to be fair Pre did beat Shorter the few times they raced, but they were in unimportant races.
Objective and subjective are not synonyms.
How many important races did Shorter beat Pre in? I can't think of any. Can you?
If you want to talk unimportant races, I'm 2-0 against Shorter, objectively.
Pre was on the cover of sports illustrated. That is a more important indicator of his legacy than prs or even medals. Were any of the other runners mentioned cover boys like Pre? To classify Pre in the same category as Rupp is nonsense. Could you imagine Rupp on the cover for SI (lol)?
Shorter, Rodgers, Ryun and Liquori also appeared on the cover of Sports Illustrated.
If appearing on that cover was an indicator of legacy then Ryun was arguably better than those others, as he was on that cover at 5 times.
Shorter made that cover once, Rodgers twice (once in the background of the Shorter cover) and Liquori and Pre once.
If one measures legacy by actual athletic results, Ryun arguably has a better legacy based on his numerous world records and Olympic silver medal. Shorter has gold and silver Olympic medals but no records. Pre and Liquori were good but also rans.
That was when it seemed like general sports coverage of (and interest in) distance running was greater than it is now.
Even if making the cover of Sports Illustrated was still possible and a big thing, I doubt a US distance runner would ever make that cover now. Maybe an outside chance if a US woman won a gold medal (while setting a world record) at the LA Olympics.
Post-2000 is a very different era, media-wise. SI was in poor health during Rupp's career, they had to focus on clawing for scraps of what their subscribership and newsstand sales were in the '70s. What year did they lay off all of their photogs?
You have a point but it’s not an apples and oranges comparison. Shorter is objectively better than Prefontaine. It’s not even debatable. I would refrain from using words like “vastly” better because to be fair Pre did beat Shorter the few times they raced, but they were in unimportant races.
Objective and subjective are not synonyms.
How many important races did Shorter beat Pre in? I can't think of any. Can you?
If you want to talk unimportant races, I'm 2-0 against Shorter, objectively.
You prove my point. You beat Shorter, Pre beat Shorter. Nobody outside this forum has a clue who you are. Maybe if you died in a car crash someone would have named a track meet after you.
No, he would not be the legend he is today. It's called romanticizing the past. He would most likely have medalled at the '76 Games with the African boycott, but no medals in '80 due to the U.S. boycott, and '76 would be his only medal with the WCs not starting till '83 and LA in '84, making him too old to be competitive at the 5K.
People who were not around in the late 60s / early 70s have no clue as to how big a star Pre was.
People who actually were around back then remember Pre being the guy who almost beat Lindgren.
If Pre won the 5000 gold in Montreal, then he would be a great hero of American distance running. I bet he also would have gone bats**t on Carter over the 1980 Moscow Games boycott and might have had the rock star clout to force a reconsideration of that move.
Yes, I think people are discounting Pre a bit here because his career got cut short.
So he is a James Dean type hero because he died young before his prime.
But had he had a "prime" perhaps he would have been famous for having his prime.
Probably would have taken him dominating the 5000 for a good span and winning the gold in Montreal.
It also would have been interesting to see how Pre would have managed road racing because those really started up about the time he died.
If you want to talk unimportant races, I'm 2-0 against Shorter, objectively.
That's funny. I was just out running a few minutes ago, thinking about this thread, and I suddenly realized that I'm 2-0 against Shorter. And yes, they were unimportant races, too.
This is a very good question. Certainly, Pre's untimely death contributed to his mythical status.
Nevertheless, his style of running and attitude made him unique in the annals of American distance running. He is probably the most quoted runner in the US. Of course, his performance at the 1972 Olympics was legendary, and replays of the 5000 final is among the most watched running videos on YouTube.
I saw Pre run in person twice. He was more than a runner, but an entertainer. He said it himself, a race was a work of art.
How many important races did Shorter beat Pre in? I can't think of any. Can you?
If you want to talk unimportant races, I'm 2-0 against Shorter, objectively.
You prove my point. You beat Shorter, Pre beat Shorter. Nobody outside this forum has a clue who you are. Maybe if you died in a car crash someone would have named a track meet after you.
I didn't prove your point. I just said that I can't think of any races that Shorter beat Pre in. This thread is about who's better, Pre or Shorter? I gave the correct answer, they're both better in different ways. Are you disputing that?
To borrow a quote from Josey Wales, "Dyin' isn't much of a livin' boy."
This post was edited 13 minutes after it was posted.
If Pre won the 5000 gold in Montreal, then he would be a great hero of American distance running. I bet he also would have gone bats**t on Carter over the 1980 Moscow Games boycott and might have had the rock star clout to force a reconsideration of that move.
Yes, I think people are discounting Pre a bit here because his career got cut short.
So he is a James Dean type hero because he died young before his prime.
But had he had a "prime" perhaps he would have been famous for having his prime.
Probably would have taken him dominating the 5000 for a good span and winning the gold in Montreal.
It also would have been interesting to see how Pre would have managed road racing because those really started up about the time he died.
Don't you think if he had a "prime" and he did get a gold he would be treated the same as all other great runners of the time. He'd be like Bob Schul or Billy Mills.
People would appreciate what he did. But, he wouldn't be PRE the legend.
If you want to talk unimportant races, I'm 2-0 against Shorter, objectively.
That's funny. I was just out running a few minutes ago, thinking about this thread, and I suddenly realized that I'm 2-0 against Shorter. And yes, they were unimportant races, too.
I'm glad you see the humor, that's the point I was making. Only mine were when he was still a competitive, not Turkey Trots.
I still don't remember Shorter ever beating Pre in any race. There must be a least one?
You prove my point. You beat Shorter, Pre beat Shorter. Nobody outside this forum has a clue who you are. Maybe if you died in a car crash someone would have named a track meet after you.
I didn't prove your point. I just said that I can't think of any races that Shorter beat Pre in. This thread is about whose better, Pre or Shorter? I gave the correct answer, they're both better in different ways. Are you disputing that?
I'm the OP. The thread is not about who is better Pre or Shorter. The thread is about whether Pre would be the legend that he is had he not died in a car crash.
I only brought Shorter up as an example of a runner that ran at the same time as Pre that achieved more than Pre.
So no you didn't give the correct answer.
At least you to the opportunity to stroke your own ego. That's what's most important.
I didn't prove your point. I just said that I can't think of any races that Shorter beat Pre in. This thread is about whose better, Pre or Shorter? I gave the correct answer, they're both better in different ways. Are you disputing that?
I'm the OP. The thread is not about who is better Pre or Shorter. The thread is about whether Pre would be the legend that he is had he not died in a car crash.
I only brought Shorter up as an example of a runner that ran at the same time as Pre that achieved more than Pre.
So no you didn't give the correct answer.
At least you to the opportunity to stroke your own ego. That's what's most important.