VO2 max training for the marathon?....Of all the training types your average marathoner could do, this is likely one of the least effective.
Obviously, having a higher VO2 max is beneficial, but lots of training, aprart from VO2 max type intervals will actually raise it AND be more specific to a marathon.
It's not either/or. You can and should include VO2max intervals in a marathon block. This doesn't prevent you from having a ton of specificity to marathon training. In a thread about only training aerobically, it's important to understand what you're giving up by doing so.
In my last marathon build, I had 6 VO2 workouts built into the first 7 weeks of the build. Four on the track, 2 races. This part of the build also included a weekly hill sprint session and a weekly threshold workout that alternated mile intervals and 8-mile steady threshold efforts. These weeks also included a 21 and 22 mile long run. Total volume was 85-115 mpw.
The next 11 weeks were highly marathon-specific. Longer threshold workouts. 20+ mile long runs with quality. 1 VO2 workout to keep in touch with speed. I was in phenomenal marathon shape. Lopped 4 minutes from my PR and got way under 2:30. The difference from that marathon build to previous ones was the early VO2 work.
It shouldn't be tons of VO2 workouts. It's only a fraction of the overall workload, but skipping it is missing out on an important piece of fitness.
My college roommate, a Kenyan guy, did nothing other than just a lot of running. I can't say exactly for sure, but I believe it was all just 6:00 pace running. I tried running with him but could not handle the mileage, he was definitely 150+ and I would not be surprised if he was close to 200 miles a week. He never did any pace changes when I ran with him and his training was kind of a mystery because nobody could do every run with him without getting bored or cooked, but whenever I asked him, he said "I just run". He was the living epitome of "Just run baby".
He despised interval workouts and generally would not do them, only if our coach forced him to which was almost never. Occasionally the coach would call me and say "bring him to practice", but we almost never had practice. We had a very self-coached situation but I'm not going to name the school. Famous place for Kenyans.
The only "workout" he would occasionally do, he would run up and down a hill for an hour. I did that workout with him once, expecting to do the typical 45 second hard interval up and jog down, but all he did was run regular run pace up and down for an hour.
He did not like running on paved roads and would walk if he had to to get to a dirt road, and then run there. Often if he didn't have time to get to a longer road, he'd just run up and down the hill which is why nobody could train with him consistently because it was just too boring.
He eventually ran sub 2:09 back when the WR was 2:06:50.
I'm not sure if he changed up his training in the 2-3 years after we lived together, but I highly doubt it. He was a friend of Cosmos Ndeti, multiple Boston champ, and he said that was how Ndeti trained (not sure if that's true but my roommate was a very honest guy so I could believe it).
VO2 max training for the marathon?....Of all the training types your average marathoner could do, this is likely one of the least effective.
Obviously, having a higher VO2 max is beneficial, but lots of training, aprart from VO2 max type intervals will actually raise it AND be more specific to a marathon.
It's not either/or. You can and should include VO2max intervals in a marathon block. This doesn't prevent you from having a ton of specificity to marathon training. In a thread about only training aerobically, it's important to understand what you're giving up by doing so.
In my last marathon build, I had 6 VO2 workouts built into the first 7 weeks of the build. Four on the track, 2 races. This part of the build also included a weekly hill sprint session and a weekly threshold workout that alternated mile intervals and 8-mile steady threshold efforts. These weeks also included a 21 and 22 mile long run. Total volume was 85-115 mpw.
The next 11 weeks were highly marathon-specific. Longer threshold workouts. 20+ mile long runs with quality. 1 VO2 workout to keep in touch with speed. I was in phenomenal marathon shape. Lopped 4 minutes from my PR and got way under 2:30. The difference from that marathon build to previous ones was the early VO2 work.
It shouldn't be tons of VO2 workouts. It's only a fraction of the overall workload, but skipping it is missing out on an important piece of fitness.
It is either/or.
If you add in a VO2 Max workout, you have to take out another type of workout.
Given that the VO2 Max workout is likely to be far more taxing (pound for pound) than doing less intense workouts, you'll also get less 'volume of intensity' by doing that.
What the Norwegian Singles thread has shown is that by removing VO2 Max workouts, you can likely fit 3 x sub-threshold workouts into a week with less fatigue cost than a weekly structure that has 1 x VO2 Max workout and 1 x threshold workout.
So again, it is an either/or. That VO2 Max workout is eating up a ton of available training load - and it's not really doing a lot for your marathon.
In theory you could run every run at just under LT1, maybe a touch slower than marathon pace to try and "push it up from below", like the NSA guys are doing with LT2. You might be able to accumulate more load than NSA too by doing this as you could make each run longer. I don't think anyone has tried it yet though.
Righteously bro ya could run over GM2, and be faster than ya eva runned bfo. It's like that ya no, but it's snot. Better to run as fast as you can at GM3, and then back off before the race and run GM1. Then again consult Myfago, the King of Coaches.
Does HADD phase I structure count? It has some light 200/200 sessions at 5k pace (even those are somewhat optional), but otherwise you slowly progress towards MP for the harder sessions, and I believe many people ran very strong marathons just on that.
If you add in a VO2 Max workout, you have to take out another type of workout.
Given that the VO2 Max workout is likely to be far more taxing (pound for pound) than doing less intense workouts, you'll also get less 'volume of intensity' by doing that.
What the Norwegian Singles thread has shown is that by removing VO2 Max workouts, you can likely fit 3 x sub-threshold workouts into a week with less fatigue cost than a weekly structure that has 1 x VO2 Max workout and 1 x threshold workout.
So again, it is an either/or. That VO2 Max workout is eating up a ton of available training load - and it's not really doing a lot for your marathon.
There's no way 3 sub threshold runs can replace a proper vo2 max workout + a proper threshold run. That's just clickbait bs.
It's not either/or. You can and should include VO2max intervals in a marathon block. This doesn't prevent you from having a ton of specificity to marathon training. In a thread about only training aerobically, it's important to understand what you're giving up by doing so.
In my last marathon build, I had 6 VO2 workouts built into the first 7 weeks of the build. Four on the track, 2 races. This part of the build also included a weekly hill sprint session and a weekly threshold workout that alternated mile intervals and 8-mile steady threshold efforts. These weeks also included a 21 and 22 mile long run. Total volume was 85-115 mpw.
The next 11 weeks were highly marathon-specific. Longer threshold workouts. 20+ mile long runs with quality. 1 VO2 workout to keep in touch with speed. I was in phenomenal marathon shape. Lopped 4 minutes from my PR and got way under 2:30. The difference from that marathon build to previous ones was the early VO2 work.
It shouldn't be tons of VO2 workouts. It's only a fraction of the overall workload, but skipping it is missing out on an important piece of fitness.
It is either/or.
If you add in a VO2 Max workout, you have to take out another type of workout.
Given that the VO2 Max workout is likely to be far more taxing (pound for pound) than doing less intense workouts, you'll also get less 'volume of intensity' by doing that.
What the Norwegian Singles thread has shown is that by removing VO2 Max workouts, you can likely fit 3 x sub-threshold workouts into a week with less fatigue cost than a weekly structure that has 1 x VO2 Max workout and 1 x threshold workout.
So again, it is an either/or. That VO2 Max workout is eating up a ton of available training load - and it's not really doing a lot for your marathon.
Y'all need to spend more time training and studying training and less time on the message boards. Dunno what to tell you, but the logic here is laughably bad.
VO2max eats up training load? It's not doing anything for your marathon? Please. There is no workout that can be subbed in for those few VO2max intervals that is more valuable.
Every modern marathon training method, from Lydiard to Pfitz to Coe to Daniels to Hansons to Canova, incorporates VO2max intervals. I encourage you to spend some time finding out why.
If you add in a VO2 Max workout, you have to take out another type of workout.
Given that the VO2 Max workout is likely to be far more taxing (pound for pound) than doing less intense workouts, you'll also get less 'volume of intensity' by doing that.
What the Norwegian Singles thread has shown is that by removing VO2 Max workouts, you can likely fit 3 x sub-threshold workouts into a week with less fatigue cost than a weekly structure that has 1 x VO2 Max workout and 1 x threshold workout.
So again, it is an either/or. That VO2 Max workout is eating up a ton of available training load - and it's not really doing a lot for your marathon.
Y'all need to spend more time training and studying training and less time on the message boards. Dunno what to tell you, but the logic here is laughably bad.
VO2max eats up training load? It's not doing anything for your marathon? Please. There is no workout that can be subbed in for those few VO2max intervals that is more valuable.
Every modern marathon training method, from Lydiard to Pfitz to Coe to Daniels to Hansons to Canova, incorporates VO2max intervals. I encourage you to spend some time finding out why.
I wouldn't call Lydiard, Pfitz, Coe and Daniels "modern".
Under Canova's philosophy, the pace you would call "VO2 max pace" is not run very often in the final 12-16 weeks of training, and even when it is, that pace is never the focus of a real workout. The reason is that it is too fast to have a direct connection to marathon performance.
Coming back to OP's question Can you run a solid marathon on aerobic running alone?
Under Canova's philosophy, the pace you would call "VO2 max pace" is not run very often in the final 12-16 weeks of training, and even when it is, that pace is never the focus of a real workout. The reason is that it is too fast to have a direct connection to marathon performance.
Coming back to OP's question Can you run a solid marathon on aerobic running alone?
The answer is yes.
Canova has written extensively about using 5k/10k type training earlier in training cycles to raise the pace which feels comfortable for later marathon specific training. This makes sense to me for an athlete who is already extremely fit, but not so much for your average joe or jane.