So you aren't aware that we've just had world championships where he didn't make the final in the 1500 and got thrashed in the 5k. No kick in sight. Game over.
I agree with the guy noting Hocker’s fast finaih in a sub 13 race, but at the same time, Jakob came straight in off injury and no outdoor races. Your juvenile hatred and jealousy of Jakob has you going over the deep edge. Jakob was far from top fitness, and if he had been fit, if that tace was run the same way, Hocker would would have beaten him.
You probably run the vid of Jakob’s 1500 heat over and over while rubbing one out.
The difference between 13:11 and 12:58 isn’t great. Jakob closes with a faster 400, 1000, 2000, and 3000. No way to refute that.
Tell that to the actual athletes running the race. You have obviously never competed in your life. At least at nothing faster than 6min pace. A full second per lap in average pace at that level is a large difference. What a dope.
Is it harder to run 16:00 going 5:09-5:09-5:09 or 16:10 going 5:39-5:39-4:19? Obviously that’s a little exaggerated, but the point is that a fast 1200m leading into the last lap is taxing just like a fast overall pace is. Jakob’s pace was slower overall but his 600 before the 52.4 in Budapest was 5 seconds faster than Coles 600 before his last lap. That matters! The race being slower doesn’t mean that Jakobs 52 is less impressive because you chose to improperly contextualize how the race actually unfolded
like you said, it's exaggerated, not even a little bit. That would be more akin to Rio 1500 than what Jakob did in his 5k. For what Jakob did in 5k, it would be more like 5:30 5:30 and a 4:40.
People often cite Jakob as running 3:54, 2:21, but guess what, Gebrhiwet, the 5th place finisher, also ran 3:54 (he was actually a few meters behind Jakob at that point, coming through 3400m in 9:21), 2:23, and he's the one who actually initiated the long kick and and got drafted! And Hocker is just so much better in the speed endurance department than Gebrhiwet has ever been with his 3:27, because dude is making a living running 13 secs per 100m for 3 and 3/4 laps, while I doubt Gebriwet could've run sub 3:30 to save his life, at least not on the day he ran the 5k.
In comparison, In Tokyo, there is no one closing within 1 sec of Hocker in a 400m. (52.61 v.s 54.06 by Kimeli, nevermind the traffic) Also, for someone who can run a 3:44 in a full mile (3:27 converted), 3:54, or 2:21 1k is gonna be very easy, unless the first 3k-4k has been so quick he was already gassed out. But in Tokyo, apparently a 7:51 didn't kill him, so he could throw down a 52 last lap on outer lane a mile later. A 8:14 is gonna be chilling pace for him. Using the 16:00 analogy, that would be like a 16:00 guy with a 4:20-25 PR running the last mile in 4;40 after he's chilling at 5:30 for the first 2 miles.
And let's not forget since the race is fast the last 1k, the field would be easily drawn out comes the bell, providing a much clean lane for Hocker. If anything, he would be even more likely to win in this scenario. Let's face it, his positioning was god awful.
The only reliable way is to make the Tokyo race even faster by running both 7:51, and sub4 1600m, sub 2:25 last 1k, essentially making it a 12:50 race, but then Jakob would have to take it out himself, which means Hocker will get to sit on him the whole time and enjoy the drafting benefit and again he wouldn't need to navigate through traffic because there wouldn't be as many people when the bell comes. And given the disastrous results for the ones pushing for the first 3k. (Gebrhiwet literally made the worst placing in his whole senior career, Fisher and Young didn't do that well either). It may well revert back to 13:00-13:10 races from now on. There's a reason why a sub 13 championship race has only happened like 4 times in history.
edit: btw, there's a reason why Mo Farah was so unbeatable in the 5k and why Katir was the closest guy to Jakob in the 5k. As 3:28 guys, they could run 2:21 last 1k and 13:00 couldn't kill them either because they're 12:40ish guy minimum.(most likely sub 12:40 for Farah, if he got to run a truly max-out 5k with Wavelight)
This post was edited 4 minutes after it was posted.
The difference between 13:11 and 12:58 isn’t great. Jakob closes with a faster 400, 1000, 2000, and 3000. No way to refute that.
Tell that to the actual athletes running the race. You have obviously never competed in your life. At least at nothing faster than 6min pace. A full second per lap in average pace at that level is a large difference. What a dope.
But then why are you disregarding Jakob’s final 2k in the race? There is a far bigger difference in closing in 4:55 rather than 5:05. It’s not as close as you are making it seem. Finishing times are not the whole story, sorry, it’s just not.
Tell that to the actual athletes running the race. You have obviously never competed in your life. At least at nothing faster than 6min pace. A full second per lap in average pace at that level is a large difference. What a dope.
But then why are you disregarding Jakob’s final 2k in the race? There is a far bigger difference in closing in 4:55 rather than 5:05. It’s not as close as you are making it seem. Finishing times are not the whole story, sorry, it’s just not.
Jakob's final 2k (actually it was all about the 1k) was impressive. But for a 3:27 guy like Hocker, that alone isn't gonna kill him. And a faster average pace is more likely/plausible to do damage to him. Hindsight is 20/20, but before Tokyo, if you asked people, I don't think many of them would've even thought Hocker could finish in top 5 (hell, even top10) in a sub 13 race, because they might've said his PB was only 12:58 and he ran 13:09 in a 12:44 race. Heck , even I didn't think he would've won (wouldn't rule that out either though) off a pace like that, because I didn't know his endurance has gotten as good as it is now.
Is it harder to run 16:00 going 5:09-5:09-5:09 or 16:10 going 5:39-5:39-4:19? Obviously that’s a little exaggerated, but the point is that a fast 1200m leading into the last lap is taxing just like a fast overall pace is. Jakob’s pace was slower overall but his 600 before the 52.4 in Budapest was 5 seconds faster than Coles 600 before his last lap. That matters! The race being slower doesn’t mean that Jakobs 52 is less impressive because you chose to improperly contextualize how the race actually unfolded
like you said, it's exaggerated, not even a little bit. That would be more akin to Rio 1500 than what Jakob did in his 5k. For what Jakob did in 5k, it would be more like 5:30 5:30 and a 4:40.
People often cite Jakob as running 3:54, 2:21, but guess what, Gebrhiwet, the 5th place finisher, also ran 3:54 (he was actually a few meters behind Jakob at that point, coming through 3400m in 9:21), 2:23, and he's the one who actually initiated the long kick and and got drafted! And Hocker is just so much better in the speed endurance department than Gebrhiwet has ever been with his 3:27, because dude is making a living running 13 secs per 100m for 3 and 3/4 laps, while I doubt Gebriwet could've run sub 3:30 to save his life, at least not on the day he ran the 5k.
In comparison, In Tokyo, there is no one closing within 1 sec of Hocker in a 400m. (52.61 v.s 54.06 by Kimeli, nevermind the traffic) Also, for someone who can run a 3:44 in a full mile (3:27 converted), 3:54, or 2:21 1k is gonna be very easy, unless the first 3k-4k has been so quick he was already gassed out. But in Tokyo, apparently a 7:51 didn't kill him, so he could throw down a 52 last lap on outer lane a mile later. A 8:14 is gonna be chilling pace for him. Using the 16:00 analogy, that would be like a 16:00 guy with a 4:20-25 PR running the last mile in 4;40 after he's chilling at 5:30 for the first 2 miles.
And let's not forget since the race is fast the last 1k, the field would be easily drawn out comes the bell, providing a much clean lane for Hocker. If anything, he would be even more likely to win in this scenario. Let's face it, his positioning was god awful.
The only reliable way is to make the Tokyo race even faster by running both 7:51, and sub4 1600m, sub 2:25 last 1k, essentially making it a 12:50 race, but then Jakob would have to take it out himself, which means Hocker will get to sit on him the whole time and enjoy the drafting benefit and again he wouldn't need to navigate through traffic because there wouldn't be as many people when the bell comes. And given the disastrous results for the ones pushing for the first 3k. (Gebrhiwet literally made the worst placing in his whole senior career, Fisher and Young didn't do that well either). It may well revert back to 13:00-13:10 races from now on. There's a reason why a sub 13 championship race has only happened like 4 times in history.
edit: btw, there's a reason why Mo Farah was so unbeatable in the 5k and why Katir was the closest guy to Jakob in the 5k. As 3:28 guys, they could run 2:21 last 1k and 13:00 couldn't kill them either because they're 12:40ish guy minimum.(most likely sub 12:40 for Farah, if he got to run a truly max-out 5k with Wavelight)
What are you even trying to argue. You’re example in Gebriwhet doesn’t make sense because he ran 12:42 that season and beat a lot of loaded guys in Monaco. So your argument stems on “Oh Hocker is way better than Gebriwhet so he would easily match Jakob’s splits.” No, he wouldn’t. What a weak argument.
“ 3:54, or 2:21 1k is gonna be very easy, unless the first 3k-4k has been so quick he was already gassed out. But in Tokyo, apparently a 7:51 didn't kill him, so he could throw down a 52 last lap on outer lane a mile later. A 8:14 is gonna be chilling pace for him. Using the 16:00 analogy, that would be like a 16:00 guy with a 4:20-25 PR running the last mile in 4;40 after he's chilling at 5:30 for the first 2 miles.“
What a load of nonsense. If it was so easy, why has nobody ever done it before. Let me make it clear, the difference between 7:52 and 8:14 just isn’t significant enough. Both were at an even pace. That isn’t damaging the top guys or even the B tier guys. What really matters is the pressure being handed to everyone in the last k, 2k, and 3k. If you’ve ever ran competitively you would know this. Jakob can do this to perfection. Hocker, I highly doubt it.
But then why are you disregarding Jakob’s final 2k in the race? There is a far bigger difference in closing in 4:55 rather than 5:05. It’s not as close as you are making it seem. Finishing times are not the whole story, sorry, it’s just not.
Jakob's final 2k (actually it was all about the 1k) was impressive. But for a 3:27 guy like Hocker, that alone isn't gonna kill him. And a faster average pace is more likely/plausible to do damage to him. Hindsight is 20/20, but before Tokyo, if you asked people, I don't think many of them would've even thought Hocker could finish in top 5 (hell, even top10) in a sub 13 race, because they might've said his PB was only 12:58 and he ran 13:09 in a 12:44 race. Heck , even I didn't think he would've won (wouldn't rule that out either though) off a pace like that, because I didn't know his endurance has gotten as good as it is now.
Sorry, but Hocker has shown no indication he can match a 2:21 last K when the final 2k is 4:55. Until he does, the rest of your post is just words. El Guerrouj was a 3:26 guy and I have doubts he would have been able to match Jakob in Paris/Budapest. A 7:34 final 3K is close to the PB of some of these guys.
I love the approach here. The problem is that every race has different weather conditions and different intra-race dynamics. For instance, if you solo the last 3k in difficult conditions, that is going to be worth a lot more than drafting 4k and then hammering. If you have no competition, you're going to tend not to go all out. In Hocker's case, his last 2k (5:05) is nothing special because no one was pushing the pace and he knew that all he had to do was stick within a few seconds of the leaders by 400m and he'd win. He was 12th at the bell. Nonetheless, he didn't even have to push the last 100m that hard because he'd already dusted everyone by 50m to go. The question for Jakob would be whether he could drop Hocker the last 200m. At Budapest in 2023, Jakob ran 13.36, 13.36, 12.89, 12.95, and 13.25 for his last five hundred meter splits (65.81) in his 13:11. From 4700m to 4900m, he ran 25.84, awfully good. Hocker only dropped under 15s per 100m the last 500m and he was not working that hard until the last 200m. His last 5 100m splits were 14.84, 14.01, 13.11, 12.99, and 12.51 (67.46). So, Jakob was over 1.5s faster the last 500m, but it's not entirely clear that Jakob could run 12.5 at the end of a 5000m. It is the last 200m where he has been beaten in the 1500m repeatedly now, even in Hocker's 3:27.65 race. Hocker closed in 12.5 in a 12:58 race after essentially resting until 300m to go. Jakob would have to burn out his kick enough to win with a 26 (13).
Why are you just looking at the last 500? The last kilometer is a much better data point when we are evaluating kick. It’s like the last 400 in a 1500. Would you agree?
So you aren't aware that we've just had world championships where he didn't make the final in the 1500 and got thrashed in the 5k. No kick in sight. Game over.
I agree with the guy noting Hocker’s fast finaih in a sub 13 race, but at the same time, Jakob came straight in off injury and no outdoor races. Your juvenile hatred and jealousy of Jakob has you going over the deep edge. Jakob was far from top fitness, and if he had been fit, if that tace was run the same way, Hocker would would have beaten him.
You probably run the vid of Jakob’s 1500 heat over and over while rubbing one out.
These threads are bad. Jakob fans are truly fantasists.
Wait, I'm a Jakob fan, I still think he will go down as one of the all-time greats, but I would distinguish between a fan and a glazer. They're glazers and I'm not. So please don't put me in the same basket as them because I have never intended to join a cult.
But then why are you disregarding Jakob’s final 2k in the race? There is a far bigger difference in closing in 4:55 rather than 5:05. It’s not as close as you are making it seem. Finishing times are not the whole story, sorry, it’s just not.
Jakob's final 2k (actually it was all about the 1k) was impressive. But for a 3:27 guy like Hocker, that alone isn't gonna kill him. And a faster average pace is more likely/plausible to do damage to him. Hindsight is 20/20, but before Tokyo, if you asked people, I don't think many of them would've even thought Hocker could finish in top 5 (hell, even top10) in a sub 13 race, because they might've said his PB was only 12:58 and he ran 13:09 in a 12:44 race. Heck , even I didn't think he would've won (wouldn't rule that out either though) off a pace like that, because I didn't know his endurance has gotten as good as it is now.
Also, if you’ve ever ran you would know that there is a MASSIVE difference between 4:55 and 5:05 for the last 2k, and 7:34/741 for the last 3k. No point in responding further if you can’t acknowledge this.
Tell that to the actual athletes running the race. You have obviously never competed in your life. At least at nothing faster than 6min pace. A full second per lap in average pace at that level is a large difference. What a dope.
But then why are you disregarding Jakob’s final 2k in the race? There is a far bigger difference in closing in 4:55 rather than 5:05. It’s not as close as you are making it seem. Finishing times are not the whole story, sorry, it’s just not.
That’s what they’ve been trying to tell you.
No matter how you slice it, Cole ran 52 to win a 12:58 race. Jakob has never done that. You’re the one claiming there isn’t much difference between 13:12 and 12:58. There absolutely is. And Hocker proves it.
this thread is silly. obviously one can't objectively say who has the Greatest Kick; it's not a well defined concept and really varies depending on what sort of race the athletes are trying to kick off.
kicking at sub 12:45 pace: cheptegei, bekele, ingebrigtsen, gebrhiwet
kicking at 12:50-13:00 pace: hocker, farah, gebrselassie
kicking in slower international race: any number of fast guys such as morceli, el guerrouj, chebii
He is past tense. Like Nurmi et al. His career is finished. There have been great runners with far better kicks than he has.
Let's see if your prayers will be heard.
Btw, you are not the most hated poster in this forum as you said. But definitely the most laughable one.
Well, here's a joke for you. This talk of Jakob's kick is baffling. He may have more in the tank at the end of a 5k race because he has more endurance but there is very little change in his cadence. There is no "sprinter" in his form - unlike those who have an explosive kick. It shows in the 1500.