not sure why you all are so focused on EPO and HGH. EPO was likely a factor for Wang's distance runs in 93, but the 80s sprint and throw records were all about testosterone and related anabolics. They didn't have a very good test at all until around 83 Pan Am games and into the late 80s the testing still wasn't frequent enough or good enough to catch someone using it to build muscle and then stopping before competitions. The men were using as well, but testosterone gives a much bigger advantage to women because their natural levels are so much lower.
What do Griffith Joyner, Koch, Kratochvílová, Wang, Joyner-Kersee have in common?
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The 1980's were a magical time wrote:
colorunner123 wrote:
Five of the all-time greats still hold records in their respective events:
Florence Griffith Joyner (100, 200)
Marita Koch (400)
Jarmila Kratochvílová (800)
Junxia Wang (3000)
Jackie Joyner-Kersee (heptathlon)
Why have their records persisted for so long? What do these five supreme athletes have in common that makes it so difficult for modern-era athletes to break their records?
Wait until the OP finds out how much harder the women's discus and shot put records are to break. He's going to be really shocked!
Its actually so sad. Have you seen the all time lists? Adams is only 23rd on the all time list(best performance since 2000).
For Allman it's not so bad but that's only due to Ramona.
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KerseesCabinet wrote:
Dwightarm wrote:
Wang has stated she was doped as part of Ma's army.
Koch and Kratochvilova are both included in documents detailing their respective doping protocols (along with their country women.) They both ran their PRs pretty late in their career.
Griffith Joyner took 1986 off from running and returned fully in '88 with a noticeably more muscular frame, dropping her 100m PR by .50 and her 200m PR by .58 at the age of 28.
Joyner-Kersee... seems to have excelled pretty much all throughout her career, both young and mature. She was consistent. Her brother was accused of administering PEDs to his athletes but no reproach or official penalty ever resulted.
What documents exist regarding Kratochvilova? There is zero documentary evidence on her, unlike Koch. The only evidence we have for the Czech is our own eyes.
For both Flo Jo & JJK, we have the testimony of former Kersee athlete Angela Bailey in the Dubin Inquiry & the accusations of Darrell Robinson to Stern magazine.
There was also mud-slinging from other coaches at that time, notably Pat Connolly & the disgraced Chuck DeBus. Since then (unreliable?) Victor Conte too. On top of Exum's dirt.
Anyone who thinks JJK is clean, just because she was talented, is coo-coo.
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Are we ready to admit Syd isn't clean?
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debbie downer wrote:
Djwalk wrote:
One reason JJK has held the heptahlon record for so long is it is an obscure event . How many heptahletes are there compared to the other events ?
I thought it was because the javelin or discus (I forget what’s in the hep) was modified in the ‘90s and basically impossible to match the old scores?
Could be wrong though.Javelin but insufficient to allow that record to stand this long.
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zxcvxzcv wrote:
They Were All Dopers wrote:
By ‘88 the entire Kenyan distance squad was already on EPO, there was no real test, same for HGH at the time, no test, and Bob Kersee was apparently an “early adopter”. Like someone else pointed out in another thread, look up Dr. Wade Exum, who used to run testing for the USOC. He still has all the test results and copies of letters sent to athletes. Sprinters and jumpers were getting away with astounding levels of drug use, including Carl Lewis, Jackie Joyner-Kersee, and so on. Lewis is the biggest and most hilarious hypocrite, and Griffith likely paid the ultimate price for using early, tainted HGH, even though it’s denied.
What evidence do you have that the Kenyans were on EPO in 1988? EPO was first approved in 1987 in Europe and 1989 in the U.S. It was first used in cycling in the late 1980s, and they are early drug adopters.
They don't know what they are talking about. Kenya is a rather interesting country in regards to doping as they are usually behind the curve. When Morocco and other countries started using EPO Kenya fell behind. They caught back up a few years later but generally when a new drug is discovered Europe and the US are the first to start using it and the Kenyans catch up a few years later.
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Uber Elite Sprint Coach wrote:
Are we ready to admit Syd isn't clean?
This needs to be said?
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Elzio Dennick wrote:
Taking about Flo Jo, I saw her Olympic 100m win on youtube last night, All the heats then the final. She was really something else, in the first heat she breaks the Olympic record with an 10,88. later she lowers that to 10.62, then a 10.54 but windy. She easily wins the final in 10,70. At no time was she ever pressed at all.
First time I ever saw her she was at UCLA running the 400, if into that event she would have been the best at it. Yep faster than 47.60. She had far more speed than Koch.
I don;t usually play this because it sucks but she had to be doing something, she was simply too fast.
But.....her 10.49 was without question windy, hell, ya could see their hair blowing in the wind when down in their blocks.
I knew Flo Jo was doping when she appeared on the sitcom 227 and had a voice deeper than Barry White.
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Elzio Dennick wrote:
Taking about Flo Jo, I saw her Olympic 100m win on youtube last night, All the heats then the final. She was really something else, in the first heat she breaks the Olympic record with an 10,88. later she lowers that to 10.62, then a 10.54 but windy. She easily wins the final in 10,70. At no time was she ever pressed at all.
First time I ever saw her she was at UCLA running the 400, if into that event she would have been the best at it. Yep faster than 47.60. She had far more speed than Koch.
I don;t usually play this because it sucks but she had to be doing something, she was simply too fast.
But.....her 10.49 was without question windy, hell, ya could see their hair blowing in the wind when down in their blocks.
I knew Flo Jo was doping when she appeared on the sitcom 227 and had a voice deeper than Barry White.
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colorunner123 wrote:
Five of the all-time greats still hold records in their respective events:
Florence Griffith Joyner (100, 200)
Marita Koch (400)
Jarmila Kratochvílová (800)
Junxia Wang (3000)
Jackie Joyner-Kersee (heptathlon)
Why have their records persisted for so long? What do these five supreme athletes have in common that makes it so difficult for modern-era athletes to break their records?
No one wants to acknowledge it, but come on. She trained with a known drugging crew when testing was very poor, and her record is ridiculous. Well said.
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AlexRio wrote:
1. All of them were doped; that was the pattern of that Era.
2. Despite that, all of them were naturally extraordinary athletes who, even without doping, could achieve some results near of that.
3. Mix both and you have what you are searching for.
^This. State sponsored doping was, more to the point, state sponsored developmental programmes from childhood. Drugs make champions better; they don't make champions. Everyone was at it, because they could get away with it. What we saw were super talents.
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yay marxism wrote:
Uber Elite Sprint Coach wrote:
Are we ready to admit Syd isn't clean?
This needs to be said?
It doesn't. It's self-serving.
It derives from (1) bitterness and envy and/or (2) shadow projection onto others of our normal human capacity to be dishonest to keep us feeling good about ourselves.
Consider, for example, those who accuse people of tax dodging are often the most creative about their own taxes.
I would be uneasy about a personal relationship, of any description, with those nameless of this board who relentless ride the doping hobby horse.
I'm a therapist. I get paid to help people uncover/work with their shadow selves.
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LDoc wrote:
yay marxism wrote:
This needs to be said?
It doesn't. It's self-serving.
It derives from (1) bitterness and envy and/or (2) shadow projection onto others of our normal human capacity to be dishonest to keep us feeling good about ourselves.
Consider, for example, those who accuse people of tax dodging are often the most creative about their own taxes.
I would be uneasy about a personal relationship, of any description, with those nameless of this board who relentless ride the doping hobby horse.
I'm a therapist. I get paid to help people uncover/work with their shadow selves.
Nope. People are saying this about SML because of her appearance and what is in the public domain regarding her coach and doping. You're just revealing your lack of knowledge about the realities of elite T&F.
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janer wrote:
LDoc wrote:
It doesn't. It's self-serving.
It derives from (1) bitterness and envy and/or (2) shadow projection onto others of our normal human capacity to be dishonest to keep us feeling good about ourselves.
Consider, for example, those who accuse people of tax dodging are often the most creative about their own taxes.
I would be uneasy about a personal relationship, of any description, with those nameless of this board who relentless ride the doping hobby horse.
I'm a therapist. I get paid to help people uncover/work with their shadow selves.
Nope. People are saying this about SML because of her appearance and what is in the public domain regarding her coach and doping. You're just revealing your lack of knowledge about the realities of elite T&F.
Her coach, yes.
What about her appearance exactly would prove doping? She is not overly muscular.31 -
janer wrote:
LDoc wrote:
It doesn't. It's self-serving.
It derives from (1) bitterness and envy and/or (2) shadow projection onto others of our normal human capacity to be dishonest to keep us feeling good about ourselves.
Consider, for example, those who accuse people of tax dodging are often the most creative about their own taxes.
I would be uneasy about a personal relationship, of any description, with those nameless of this board who relentless ride the doping hobby horse.
I'm a therapist. I get paid to help people uncover/work with their shadow selves.
Nope. People are saying this about SML because of her appearance and what is in the public domain regarding her coach and doping. You're just revealing your lack of knowledge about the realities of elite T&F.
I think you've missed the point entirely. At the very least, acknowledge in yourself that SML has the very same methods open to her as everyone else. If you can't, you're actually proving the point. "Nope" is a defense. It's the very essence of my post.
I competed for my country in international athletics. I know this world better than most.
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Field Of Dreams wrote:
Natalya Lisovskaya's 22.63m in the shot put and Gabriele Reinsch 76.80m in the discus are truly untouchable...more so than the dodgy track records.
I think once the rotation technique really sets in, the right woman can break the WR. It's still relatively new, and we have seen the men able to lift the event standards with that technique, and the women can do the same. But the woman that breaks the WR will need to be a physical specimen, not a 5'8 - 5'10 woman like a Jackson, Schilder, Mitton, but a 6'0 plus woman. Ogunleye is 6'0, but lacks something. One wonders what Valerie Adams (6'4) could have thrown had she been experienced & trained with the rotation technique.
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