I dont think 8 weeks would be enough to build up to and get adapted to a good enough volume of marathon paced runnig. 12 weeks is probably enough if taper isnt included.
I am glad you brought that up. Many only regard certain weeks to tell people how they train. It is as if the 8 years they spent running in high school and college have nothing to do whatsoever with what they do now!
That's a really great point which is not made nearly often enough.
I haven’t read the thread yet but a few posts. I see these original posts or similar ones come up from time to time. All good, but human physiology hasn’t changed in hundreds or perhaps thousands of years. So there is a locked thread buried here Lydiard versus Daniel which is pretty good in spots. Look for HRE’s posts (among others).
The simple premise and foundation of distance training has not changed in nearly 70 years and it shouldn’t really except for some minutiae and nuances in detail and practical application of the art of coaching.
the fundamentals were created by Arthur Lydiard. Very little to nothing has changed since his work in the late 50s to 2000s.
The Norwegian approach looks a lot like Lydiard.
There are a couple issues about Lydiard training info that is online: Some inaccurate info (like harmfully inaccurate) and he sounded as though he contradicted himself. He didn’t but you have to already know the context of what he was saying when he wrote or toured and spoke sometimes.
Ron Daws and Lydiard with Gilmour and Keith Livingstone wrote very informative books on the method.
There are many coaches who are successful using the Lydiard method. Some know this and some actually don’t. Odd, I know. East Africans arrived at the same conclusions regarding training on their own. Just too bad about the aided results now.
HRE: I have always found you respectful and draw encouragement from your posts. It is doubtful if I would still be here if you had disappeared. You are likely quite old like myself, heck I never really knew much at all about Lydiard in high school! What new plans have impressed you most since old Arthur passed? What is the greatest improvement in the sport? What would you improve?
So I have to stick around to keep you from leaving? That's a lot of pressure. How many people do you think read that and thought "What a great toofer that would be." Thanks!
Yes, I'll show my age here. Nothing really looks new to me. Everything looks like slight tweaks on stuff we were doing 50 plus years ago explained with more sophisticated terminology.
Would I recommend any of them? Sure, do the one that appeals to you most, the one that will have you doing as much running as you can manage. I have come to believe that for almost everyone what matters is if you're running enough. The rest is details.
Sorry about the pressure, there are some other positive writers on LRC besides yourself. Also, I love many of the names people come up with. (Hard Loper) There are enough reasons to come back and that is why I do. But like many I long for the simple days when it was mostly about training.
I also agree with you that there is really nothing new under the sun when it comes to training, although there are ways to get to the same point. I read a short piece on LRC which was about Dave Wottle and how he supposedly trained. The way he raced the 800 in the Olympics was very similar to the way he trained all the time. He often came from he back. His coach had a "whistle drill" where they would run laps at a slow pace. When he whistled they had to pick it up to an extremely fast pace such as their top 400 pace or faster. The coach would make them do that for 20-25 yards or so. That would be repeated a number of times over a certain distance or until they were tired.
That drill is similar to the Indian File Run, 30 meter sprints, 50 sprint-50 jog, and lots of other stuff.
TBH the Norwegian singles "plan" is what I'd do to get to a decent level of fitness and then do 1 marathon specific workout each week the last 8-12 weeks I have left. Basically train for a good 10k and maximize marathon ability as the cherry on top.
What is the 16 week plan? Awesome—let’s build your 16-week hybrid marathon plan based on the Norwegian singles method + marathon-specific workouts in the final phase. This plan assumes you're already running consistently and can handle ~40–60 miles per week. You’ll train like a 10K runner first, then shift gears to marathon prep. 🗓️ 16-Week Hybrid Marathon Training Plan Weeks 1–8: Norwegian Singles Phase (10K Fitness Focus) Goal: Build aerobic capacity, speed endurance, and threshold efficiency. Weekly Structure: Mon: Easy run (45–60 min) Tue: Threshold intervals (e.g., 6×2000m @ ~10K pace, 90s rest) Wed: Easy run or rest Thu: Threshold intervals (e.g., 12×1000m @ half-marathon pace, 60s rest) Fri: Easy run (45 min) Sat: Long run (90–120 min, easy pace) Sun: Easy run or strides + drills Sample Threshold Workouts: 8×1 mile @ 10K pace, 60s jog 25×400m @ 8K pace, 30s jog 3×3K @ threshold pace, 2 min rest Weeks 9–16: Marathon-Specific Phase Goal: Maintain threshold sharpness while layering in marathon endurance. Weekly Structure: Mon: Easy run (45–60 min) Tue: Threshold intervals (same as before) Wed: Easy run or rest Thu: Marathon-specific workout (see below) Fri: Easy run (45 min) Sat: Long run (build to 2.5–3 hours) Sun: Recovery run or strides Marathon-Specific Workouts (1/week): Week 9: 3×5 miles @ marathon pace, 3 min jog Week 10: 16 miles w/ last 6 @ marathon pace Week 11: 2×10K @ marathon pace, 3 min rest Week 12: 18 miles w/ last 8 @ marathon pace Week 13: 3×4 miles @ marathon pace, 2 min jog Week 14: 20 miles w/ last 10 @ marathon pace Week 15: 12 miles w/ last 6 @ marathon pace (taper begins) Week 16: Race week (2–3 short runs + marathon) 🧠 Key Principles Threshold workouts stay consistent throughout to maintain sharpness Marathon workouts gradually increase in volume and specificity Long runs build endurance and mental toughness Recovery is sacred—don’t skip easy days Want me to tailor this to your current fitness level, weekly mileage, or goal marathon time? I can also help you track progress or adjust for race-day conditions.
Write something by yourself and stop with the ai slop
Which training plan, philosophy, or approach are you betting your life on, and why is it the one that delivers when everything’s on the line? Let’s hear it: old-school mileage monsters, Canova disciples, Hanson loyalists, Ingebrigtsen-style threshold kings, who’s got the honest answer?
I threw a bold question into the wild and got crickets in return. However, sometimes the silence says more about the audience than the question. I asked for real conviction, not just recycled training plans. That kind of challenge demands guts to answer, people like that are rare. Not everyone can be a Craig Virgin or Rod Dixon, someone who knows what they are doing and is not afraid to tell exactly what they think.
Obviously as a runner, coach and writer about Athletics for over 55 years there was not much that I had to learn about our sport. But I always hope to get more up-to-date with running because you cannot be familar with everyone and everything in any sport even the NFL, NBA, and MLB!
New terminology isn’t just jargon, it’s access. It lets you connect with other runners, coaches, and communities more fluently, and that’s powerful. Thank you to those few that helped me out.
Which training plan, philosophy, or approach are you betting your life on, and why is it the one that delivers when everything’s on the line? Let’s hear it: old-school mileage monsters, Canova disciples, Hanson loyalists, Ingebrigtsen-style threshold kings, who’s got the honest answer?
I threw a bold question into the wild and got crickets in return. However, sometimes the silence says more about the audience than the question. I asked for real conviction, not just recycled training plans. That kind of challenge demands guts to answer, people like that are rare. Not everyone can be a Craig Virgin or Rod Dixon, someone who knows what they are doing and is not afraid to tell exactly what they think.
🏃♂️ What Are Easy Intervals? Easy intervals are structured bouts of running at a pace that’s faster than your easy/recovery pace but not hard enough to dip into anaerobic territory. Think of them as “cruise control” efforts—smooth, controlled, and repeatable. They’re often used to: Build aerobic capacity without excessive fatigue Improve running economy Add variety to training while staying low-risk Prepare the body for more intense workouts later in the cycle 🧠 Why They Work for Marathoners Marathon training is all about durability and aerobic strength. Easy intervals allow you to: Accumulate time at moderate intensity without spiking lactate Practice pacing and rhythm over longer distances Recover faster than from traditional speedwork 🗓️ Sample Easy Interval Session Here’s a classic structure you might use early in a marathon cycle: Workout: Warm-up: 10–15 minutes easy jog Main Set: 6–8 × 3 minutes @ marathon pace or slightly faster Recovery: 90 seconds easy jog between reps Cool-down: 10 minutes easy jog Alternative: 10 × 1 minute @ tempo pace with 1-minute jog recoveries Great for sharpening turnover without taxing the system 🧩 How to Fit It Into a Training Plan Early Phase: Use easy intervals to build aerobic strength before introducing threshold or VO2 max work. Mid Phase: Combine with longer tempo runs or progression runs. Late Phase: Use them as recovery workouts between long runs or race-pace simulations. Want help designing a full 12-week plan with these principles baked in? Or maybe a week-by-week progression that builds from easy intervals to race-specific workouts? You can discover all of that stuff online!
In order to be at my best I'll need to train for another 20 years at least.
How do you know what to try if you do not look things up? You are welcome.
Jed Clampett, you are absolutely correct. To excel in anything one has to be most-knowledgeable about that 'anything'. I have personally excelled in anything and everything I've gone after; excelling per my own standards and expectations and excelling per my peers on those fields.
When I decided to run a marathon I first spent 6 months researching running, then marathons and then The Boston Marathon (figured I'd aim for the top - kind of like striving for an A in a class and settling for a B instead of striving for a B and settling for a C). Before I took my first step on a run I studied it for 6 months. The first thing I learned was that the Marathon is 40% neck up and 60% neck down.
Most of the yahoos on this site think all there is to successful running is running. I was led to this site by a friend that advised me 'be sure to hangout at 'LetsRun.com' to learn 'HOW NOT TO', and BOY, did he hit the nail on the head. I've seen much more misguidance and display of lack of running knowledge that I ever imagined. My guess is that this site, developed with the best of intentions, have been overtaken by Jr. High kids and keyboard warriors that couldn't run out of a burning house.
I see you pushing that '40% neck up' and couldn't agree more. Knowledge is king.
Turn forty in a couple of months. Ran my marathon PB back in 2020. Did everything I could to improve in the three years that followed, but came up short.
Got the itch again this spring. Realised that now is the time if I want to give it one last shot to bring that PB down.
Came down on the Norwegian Singles approach, mainly after seeing what sirpoc did in London. And also because he sold it as a "cure" for the boom-bust cycle of running that stopped me in previous years. The idea was that this sort of training would let me be more consistent, improve my aerobic capacity and, hopefully, improve my 5k and 10k PBs before giving the marathon another crack.
Four months in and it's not looking good! No sane betting man would put money on me improving any of my PBs. But I'm taking the long view, and will continue with this approach until the spring and evaluate at that point.
How do you know what to try if you do not look things up? You are welcome.
Jed Clampett, you are absolutely correct. To excel in anything one has to be most-knowledgeable about that 'anything'. I have personally excelled in anything and everything I've gone after; excelling per my own standards and expectations and excelling per my peers on those fields.
When I decided to run a marathon I first spent 6 months researching running, then marathons and then The Boston Marathon (figured I'd aim for the top - kind of like striving for an A in a class and settling for a B instead of striving for a B and settling for a C). Before I took my first step on a run I studied it for 6 months. The first thing I learned was that the Marathon is 40% neck up and 60% neck down.
Most of the yahoos on this site think all there is to successful running is running. I was led to this site by a friend that advised me 'be sure to hangout at 'LetsRun.com' to learn 'HOW NOT TO', and BOY, did he hit the nail on the head. I've seen much more misguidance and display of lack of running knowledge that I ever imagined. My guess is that this site, developed with the best of intentions, have been overtaken by Jr. High kids and keyboard warriors that couldn't run out of a burning house.
I see you pushing that '40% neck up' and couldn't agree more. Knowledge is king.
Well you are mostly right on most accounts, especially learning WHAT NOT TO DO which it turns out can be as important as knowing what to do. And that is what the EXPERTS on LRC have helped you and I with!
Turn forty in a couple of months. Ran my marathon PB back in 2020. Did everything I could to improve in the three years that followed, but came up short.
Got the itch again this spring. Realised that now is the time if I want to give it one last shot to bring that PB down.
Came down on the Norwegian Singles approach, mainly after seeing what sirpoc did in London. And also because he sold it as a "cure" for the boom-bust cycle of running that stopped me in previous years. The idea was that this sort of training would let me be more consistent, improve my aerobic capacity and, hopefully, improve my 5k and 10k PBs before giving the marathon another crack.
Four months in and it's not looking good! No sane betting man would put money on me improving any of my PBs. But I'm taking the long view, and will continue with this approach until the spring and evaluate at that point.
The Kenyan that ran 2 hours is supposed to be 50 years old. You never can tell.
I like this question, not sure about what specific training plan I’d use but the philosophy’s would definitely just be very basic time on my feet and make sure I got in enough 18-20 milers during training. My pr is relatively easy to beat compared to my track times, so I think focusing on those basic principles would get me into the low 2:30s. I’ve run sub 15 in the 5k and sub 4:15 in the mile but when I ran my Marathon Pr I was just trying to do the bare minimum to ensure I got into Boston (ran 2:44 negative split), training was okay, but I basically trained like I was going to run XC in the fall and didn’t do too many marathon specific sessions since I didn’t plan on pursuing the full marathon after I ran Boston. I think more than anything the long run would be really where I dialed in. I would run 70 miles a week during marathon training but it was all 8-10 mile runs with one 13 mile long run. I only ever did a 20 miler as a test run a few weeks before the marathon just to make sure I knew what running that long felt like. In my opinion the long run is more important than the mileage. It’s better to run 60 mpw with a 18-20 mile long run then to run 70 to 80s but all 10 mile runs.
Which training plan, philosophy, or approach are you betting your life on, and why is it the one that delivers when everything’s on the line? Let’s hear it: old-school mileage monsters, Canova disciples, Hanson loyalists, Ingebrigtsen-style threshold kings, who’s got the honest answer?
I threw a bold question into the wild and got crickets in return. However, sometimes the silence says more about the audience than the question.
Sometimes the protest says more about the speaker than the audience. ("I'm funny; the audience just doesn't get it" -- said every bombing comedian ever.)
Your question wasn't bold, or even interesting.
"How best to train for a marathon?" has been recycled on hundreds of LR threads and hundreds of published books.
It is hard to think of a more dull question, in fact. People are always training for marathons and rightfully want to talk about that, and/or revisit their glory days and good ideas, so you'll get some bites.
But the silence is due to most people here being interested in novel conversations.
I like this question, not sure about what specific training plan I’d use but the philosophy’s would definitely just be very basic time on my feet and make sure I got in enough 18-20 milers during training. My pr is relatively easy to beat compared to my track times, so I think focusing on those basic principles would get me into the low 2:30s. I’ve run sub 15 in the 5k and sub 4:15 in the mile but when I ran my Marathon Pr I was just trying to do the bare minimum to ensure I got into Boston (ran 2:44 negative split), training was okay, but I basically trained like I was going to run XC in the fall and didn’t do too many marathon specific sessions since I didn’t plan on pursuing the full marathon after I ran Boston. I think more than anything the long run would be really where I dialed in. I would run 70 miles a week during marathon training but it was all 8-10 mile runs with one 13 mile long run. I only ever did a 20 miler as a test run a few weeks before the marathon just to make sure I knew what running that long felt like. In my opinion the long run is more important than the mileage. It’s better to run 60 mpw with a 18-20 mile long run then to run 70 to 80s but all 10 mile runs.
Interesting post. Of course it's one that pertains more to a younger person than an old one. And if you ability decreases you must do more miles than 70 mpw and for a much longer time. Thank you!