Doping in "hobby jogging"

Kevin Castille was caught doping in his 40s. Dude was out winning local 10ks and stuff well into his upper 40s. He had a couple age group world records too. He said for him the thrill was just that he felt unloved/cared for as a kid by his parents and was just trying to compensate for that and prove himself to his parents and everyone else that he was important and that he was worthy of being loved.

I’m guessing there are loads of “hybrid runners” doping. Just because they aren’t professionals doesn’t mean they don’t make it part of their identity.

Nope. I have been on countless doses and protocols - some well under physiological levels and some over. All had side effects on distance running, just a matter of degree.

For example, on supraphysiologic levels (i.e., TT above 900 ng/DL) you experience strength gains, but at a cost, including many of the side effects I mentioned. While 5-10 lbs of water weight is unlikely to hinder a sprinter, it sure ain't going to help a distance runner.

I am not defending dopers. I am only making point that EPO is hell of a lot more effective PED than TRT for older distance runners. But like I said, I would be interested to hear experience of others.

I imagine a high percentage of older men on TRT, including but not limited to those who also happen to be runners, are hoping to enhance their performance in bed, not even thinking about running performance.

When you include Dehydroepiandrostone (DHEA) into the mix, I'd say a lot are. Don't forget DHEA is sold as a dietary supplement in the U.S. & costs pennies!

DHEA, like testosterone, declines with age. Dr Dennis Villareal, Baylor College of Medicine, is an authority on DHEA & aging. See his studies on the benefits people over 65 received with DHEA supplementation.

Do any of you remember the McPherson doping case? The over 60 diminutive race walker that tested positive for an anabolic/androgenic compound at the indoor masters championships back in 2017?

timesofsandiego.com

Race Walker, 60, Under Doping Ban Blames Testers or Tainted Lotion

Ken Stone • Times of San Diego

Scottt McPherson's budding walk career was cut short when USADA announced it was banning the Lubbock man from official competition for four years.

Open link

He came up a crazy story that he sat on some hand lotion that was tainted on the bleachers at the stadium. 🤣

What happen here is McPherson didn't think he'd get tested being a sole competitor in his race walking event. 😉 I bet he won't make the same mistake twice.

Then why are the Kenyan runners testing positive for the anabolic compound Norandrosterone more than any other PED? 🤔

antidopingdatabase.com

Kenya’s doping problem: Norandrosterone

Inside Sport AS

Kenya is holding the third spot in the sport of track and field when it comes to doping cases. Close to 280 of the Kenyans has been banned for an anti-doping rule violation.

Open link

I'll tell you why: Hard endurance training raises cortisol levels subsequently suppressing testosterone levels. Anabolic/androgenic agents - synthetic testosterone included - raises testosterone levels combating those high cortisol levels. The athlete can train harder & recover faster over the clean runner. No brainer here.

And the dosages the Kenyans are using are small - not ths larger doses that athletes use for muscle building & weight gain.

Go look up some of these top Kenyan distance runners who have tested positive for Norandrosterone & testosterone -- they're skinny as a rail. Lol

You are talking about two different compounds. Nandrolone is far more anabolic than testosterone (11:1 versus 1:1). It is not even close. The reason why there are more positive tests for nandrolone is because it heavily suppresses natural production of testosterone (even more than TRT) and is therefore easier to detect than EPO.

The “hybrid athlete” influencer community most definitely has a doping epidemic. I refuse to believe 5’9”, 240lb jacked specimens are routinely taking down experienced ultra runners at Leadville without some sort of juice pumping through them.

Yes, it is possible for a clean athlete to build a nice physique and train for endurance running events. With strong cardio training a fit guy can throw down a 36 minute 10k with a muscular frame. But I refuse to believe these hulk-men bodybuilders on social media are only using a “manifestation mindset” to be grinding out 90 mile weeks, repping 425lb deadlifts, and hitting 2 hours of daily “Hyrox” training (they throw a literal tantrum if you call it CrossFit training anymore) all at the same time for months on end to prep for an ultra marathon without using a performance enhancer. A clean diet, proper hydration, and a whey protein supplement from a conveniently placed sponsor cannot possibly sustain the undertaking of subjecting the human body to the insane daily workloads they highlight.

But then again, maybe what I am missing is in their exclusive $250 course, available at the link in their Instagram bio for 15% off with code “GRIND”.

M66 here: I think some folks are conflating true “hobby joggers” with very competitive folks on the USATF masters championship racing circuit. These are two very different groups of people.

Top USATF folks train very hard and take the sport as seriously as pro runners.

True “hobby joggers” including myself have zero interest in that level of competition.
The motivation and reason for running is VERY different for the two groups.

If you are extremely motivated and have invested a fairly large chunk of your life in competition then the temptation to “enhance” has to be higher than for the hobby joggers.

But I have no idea whether that actually translates to large numbers of folks cheating. Someone should study this, actually.

All I have are my personal experiences living in a relatively small community of runners. Of the few folks I know who are top masters runners I would bet the house that not only are they NOT cheating, but they strive more than anyone I know to play by the rules. Simply put, they are purists.

True “hobby joggers” will never show up at the top of results or bump anyone out of a top spot. Speaking for myself there are zero motivating forces to encourage me to cheat. Like my hobby jogger peers, I’m trying to do everything I can to remain healthy. Many over the counter “performance” supplements have little to no safety testing. The FDA simply does not have the resources to do this. And as far as TRT, it’s a drug and it has risks. I doubt I’d take it even if my levels were low.

No you don’t.

I'm still confused why peo

Oops. Still confused why the term "cheating" is being used? Is there an anti-doping clause in the waiver I sign at the local 5k?

At someone in my late 30s starting my inevitable decline, I can't imagine why the hell someone that garners no financial benefits from this hobby would be inclined to dope. Just accept the glory days are over and find a different hobby like pickleball or cycling. But we have ego and competitiveness and all that.

I think you are looking at it wrong. Just because something seems silly and impractical (like doping to run a 22 minute 5K) doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Simply put, many - probably most - people are not practical or rational creatures. For proof of that, just look at, umm, the entire history of the human race. We live in a world with unprecedented access to the best, most accurate information, but much of the population believes in Bigfoot, space lasers, Masonic plots, pyramid power, and who knows what else.

I don't doubt for one moment that some older runners, even those who seem to have astonishingly little to gain, would dope. You can conjure up all sorts of situations where someone might find doping rewarding, even if they don't gain financially: wanting to beat your training buddy who you're secretly jealous of; wanting to qualify for Boston (and the accompanying status that confers); wanting to impress a romantic interest; etc.

Don't tell me that out of 100 runners faced with those types of temptations, you don't think that at least of them would dope. Furthermore, these guys (and gals) you see at road races in their 50s/60s tend to have lots of disposable income by this point in their lives. They can afford it, the same way old, far-from-elite triathletes can afford ridiculously expensive equipment and entry fees.

Another point I would make is, when a mediocre athlete dopes and improves only a small amount, or perhaps doesn't even improve at all, that does make it seem really silly - but remember: they didn't KNOW BEFOREHAND they weren't going to improve much. Presumably, the 23-minute 5K runner who improves to 22:30 with unneeded TRT was hoping for much more.

If you are a hobby jogger who is doping, then you need to do something else with your life because you definitely have some major problems.

Every time the subject here is brought up (every month or so) masters running is mentioned. However, the statements are often made by people who don't participate at those events or even at big road or track races around the country.

I'm a regular on the national masters circuit and do some big-time road races each year (majors and USATF open circuit). Can't speak for the every person runner out there, nor the others on the masters races. Can only speak for myself and can make an educated guess on some of the others.

At the local level, I don't think intentional doping is all that high. There might be some who do hormone therapy for health reasons. It might be interesting to see data on the percent of people in the general population who take something that would be on the WADA list. The running population would probably be reflective of that.

As for those who are highly competitive, consistently racing at national-level races, I don't think it is that common but don't know for sure. Maybe some have TUEs. USADA does test at maybe 50-60% of the races. Not everyone gets tested, but the overall winners and top runners in select age groups are picked. So maybe 10-12 athletes get tested at a given race. There have been just two or three positive tests at national races in the past decade. Some athletes become scarce when it is known that there will be testing (DNS or DNF). A few might be suspicious, when they improve by a huge amount in a short period of time (like the aforementioned Robert Qualls), look extremely buff or lean, or race a lot and just blow records out of the water every time they line up (Kevin Castille some years back). Random testing would be a good deterrent but that would take a lot of resources away from testing at the professional level.

I wonder about gym bros, that's a different culture and maybe it's more prevalent there, but actually you don't see a lot of them at the national races. There is no testing of the masses (including age group runners) at major road races, except when there is prize money. Have never heard of a positive test for a prize-winning (typically former or current elites) masters runner at a race like NYC, Boston, Chicago, Peachtree etc.

Ascribing such dark motives to a 60 year old turkey trot runner on TRT is a bit harsh.

I have been frequenting TRT forums for years and can assure that the vast majority of older guys using TRT are doing so for general health reasons. Their motivation for starting TRT are usually far more benign - general lack of drive; middle age malaise; an attempt to salvage a marriage (or to begin again after divorce); to improve a fading sex life; to alleviate joint pain; hold onto muscle into old age. Winning an obscure 5k is not high on the list.

There are several good articles on the GOAT rower, Steve Redgrave, on how he started using TRT to help help his depression. Hardly a guy trying to recapture his glory days (doesn't sound like he even rows anymore).

Are there exceptions? Of course, there are d bags who will try to game the system, which is why the high profile races should be tested as poster mentions above.

But as I stated earlier, TRT is not a magic elixir for distance runners (versus EPO). I have been underwhelmed by the purported benefits of TRT despite years of experimenting with it, which I why I have quit several times. Within the first few weeks of restarting TRT, both my HR and RPE will increase significantly on distance runs despite improvements in strength.

Here is a good example of what you find on Reddit re TRT impact on cardio:

"I've been on TRT for 8 months. There IS a side effect of TRT that negatively impacts
running performance. I've been running for 20 years and I have always been able
to run 7-8 minute miles for 10+ miles, no problem. After 3 months on TRT, my
running performance completely tanked. 9 minute miles are now a struggle and so
are long distances."

What you are missing is that it is vastly easier to catch anabolic ped use than epo. You can microdose epo and have it undetectable in a matter of hours. This is why Kenyan athletes who are taking both usually are caught with anabolics.