Jack Daniel’s principals on easy running wrong?

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1 year ago 05/13/2025 6:57am EDT

re: TheVikingRunner333

I find it helps to break traditional “Easy runs” up into 2 categories instead.

Regeneration Runs: 60-65% of maximum heart rate or Lactate Threshold pace x 130-135%

Easy Runs: 65-70% of maximum heart rate or Lactate Threshold pace x 125-130%

if you have 2 days between hard stress workouts the first day may be a Regeneration Run and the second day an easy run.

This would put a 16:30 5k / 34:30 10k runner with a 5:45 pace Lactate Threshold doing a regeneration run at ~7:28-7:46 and an easy run at ~7:11-7:28 pace

Recovery day 1 may be a 30-45 minute regeneration run and day 2 might be a 45-60 minute easy run.

1 year ago 05/13/2025 7:02am EDT

re: MPR

Or better still, do your easy runs by feel, not pace.

Trying to work out some magic formula for recovery running is idiotic.

1 year ago 05/13/2025 7:10am EDT

re: Jim Beam

Jim Beam wrote:
Or better still, do your easy runs by feel, not pace.
Trying to work out some magic formula for recovery running is idiotic.

Often new runners, young runners, inpatient runners and overly competitive runners either don’t know or will mislead themselves when given a “by feel” set of instructions.

i find it useful to give them a set of guardrails as well as the “feel” guidance.

1 year ago 05/13/2025 7:39am EDT

re: Old And In The Way

That's a good video clip.

I never got the impression that JD was hard set on a specific easy pace. If you look at his book--I've got the 3rd edition he's referencing in that clip--he has a heart rate range that begins at 65 percent of max hr. I would be well over 2 min slower than 5k pace there.

1 year ago 05/13/2025 8:49am EDT

re: Easydayseasyy

Easydayseasyy wrote:
Pros should pay attention wrote:
Any pro that is running a sub 2:10 marathon 4:58 mile pace should never run an easy run slower than 7 minute pace. It is what we always called JUNK MILES.
The Kenyans jog 9 minute pace and still out run your 2:10 so what about junk miles

140 miles a week at 7 or 8000 ft altitude is quite different than 70 miles a week at 500 feet.

1 year ago 05/13/2025 8:52am EDT

re: Badcompany

Badcompany wrote:
Vvvvvvvvv wrote:
pretty much every 4 min guy I see is doing 6:30. 05 basically 5k+ 2 mins.Guys like JI are doing 6:00-6:15s. Rupp and Mo were doing 5:45s. Adjust for altitude and footing..
90s off 5k is on the fast end and 2:30 is getting toward the slow end.
HS go to fast but we aren’t talking about 5k+2mins. They are doing the 5k+1 to keep up with the kingdom’s a 5k 90s faster. Too fast is bad. Doesn’t mean the right move is to go too slow…
I followed Scott Fauble for awhile back in day. From what I saw his average easy pace was about 710. I follow Klecker and Mantz on Strava. I see a lot of 7 Min miles. Salazar liked his guys doing 6 min easy runs but Rupp ended up needing Achilles surgery.

Rupp needed Achilles surgery due to a deformity that he neglected for years and the addition of carbon plated shoes.

1 year ago 05/13/2025 9:18am EDT

re: gulpgulp

gulpgulp wrote:
Badcompany wrote:
I followed Scott Fauble for awhile back in day. From what I saw his average easy pace was about 710. I follow Klecker and Mantz on Strava. I see a lot of 7 Min miles. Salazar liked his guys doing 6 min easy runs but Rupp ended up needing Achilles surgery.
Rupp needed Achilles surgery due to a deformity that he neglected for years and the addition of carbon plated shoes.

Weldon Johnson liked to run slow and end up injured and dropping out of the OT in 04 and was never the same. Clearly running slow is dangerous right?

1 year ago 05/13/2025 9:20am EDT

re: TheVikingRunner333

TheVikingRunner333 wrote:
I think Jack Daniel’s hits it out of the park when it comes to paces used on your hard days based off your race times. However, I think he misses the mark when it comes to easy running. Saying to add 2 minutes to your 5k pace. Having a 16:XX runner running 7:20s on easy days is way to fast in my opinion. Thoughts?

I think it depends on your total volume. If you're relatively low volume it's probably better to be on the faster side of your easy pace. But if you're doing a lot of volume, a bit slower is better. If you're only running 30-40 days per week you can do your 5 mile easy run a little faster than someone out there doing 10 mile easy runs. At a certain point, it might be good to have two pace zones for easy runs. John Korir, Chicago and Boston marathon champ, ran as high as 145 miles on 6 days of running (24 miles per day when he ran). He'd do about 30% of his running at 5:20-4:30 pace, 35% at 6:40-6:50 pace, and 35% at 8:30 pace. I imagine if he dropped his mileage, he would drop more of the 8:30 pace and keep most of the rest.

1 year ago 05/13/2025 10:02am EDT

re: TheVikingRunner333

I don't really think easy pace matters much at all. Run at roughly 65-70% of max HR - for a young male, between 130 and 140 (on average). Also depends on how hard you'll hit workouts - the harder the workouts, the slower easy days should be IMO

1 year ago 05/13/2025 10:59am EDT

re: Old And In The Way

Old And In The Way wrote:
Video:www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHJd2e5qbFo

This should be the end of the thread.

For those who didn't take the time to watch the 90 sec explanation:

- Feel free to vary easy pace by how you feel. Don't be afraid to run faster if you feel good, or slower if you feel bad.

- Keep good biomechanics.

- If you feel crappy enough you can't keep good biomechanics, stop.

That's really it.

1 year ago 05/13/2025 11:24am EDT

re: Jim Beam

Jim Beam wrote:
TheVikingRunner333 wrote:
I think Jack Daniel’s hits it out of the park when it comes to paces used on your hard days based off your race times. However, I think he misses the mark when it comes to easy running. Saying to add 2 minutes to your 5k pace. Having a 16:XX runner running 7:20s on easy days is way to fast in my opinion. Thoughts?
Jack Daniels.
Jack Daniels' principles.
You're welcome.

If you're going to be ornery:

Jack Daniels's principles.

It's not a plural possessive.

1 year ago 05/13/2025 11:44am EDT

re: TheVikingRunner333

TheVikingRunner333 wrote:
I think Jack Daniel’s hits it out of the park when it comes to paces used on your hard days based off your race times. However, I think he misses the mark when it comes to easy running. Saying to add 2 minutes to your 5k pace. Having a 16:XX runner running 7:20s on easy days is way to fast in my opinion. Thoughts?

Well, your thought is wrong. Infact Daniels estimated easy pace is very well balanced to give around 70-75 % of max heartrate and the most effective steady easy pace that also won't negatively effect a coming quality workout next day.Running most of your easy runs at this pace partly explains why it's possible to reach individual top performance on relatively low mileage. But of course Daniels paces are just a suggestion and can be changed to a little slower pace up to the individual runner's needs when e.g just before or after a race or quality workout. Within to handle this perfect needs ' the Art of coaching' and a very experienced coach.🇸🇪🤠🇸🇪

1 year ago 05/13/2025 11:52am EDT

re: TheVikingRunner333

Cap your easy runs by heart rate - around 70% of max will put you in the right place

1 year ago 05/13/2025 11:54am EDT

re: Brianruns10

Brianruns10 wrote:
Jim Beam wrote:
Easy is a feeling, not a number.
Yeah for me the rule of thumb was that the pace should be easy enough to hold a conversation. That always seemed to help keep the pace in line.

Nailed it!

1 year ago 05/13/2025 11:57am EDT

re: Pros should pay attention

Pros should pay attention wrote:
I ran for Jack Daniel’s and the goal was to teach your body to recover at a faster pace. Much like you learn to increase your mileage you learn to slightly increase your recovery pace. This builds strength. There wasn’t Strava back in the VanCortland days but there were plenty of seniors recovering at 6:30 pace. It was tough for the freshman.

That's a very good comment.I ran 6:30 pace at easy runs and was always fresh the day after and I was an elite runner.

1 year ago 05/13/2025 6:58pm EDT

re: MPR

MPR wrote:
Often new runners, young runners, inpatient runners and overly competitive runners either don’t know or will mislead themselves when given a “by feel” set of instructions.
i find it useful to give them a set of guardrails as well as the “feel” guidance.

How did runners manage to control themselves before pulse monitors became mandatory?

1 year ago 05/13/2025 7:07pm EDT

re: Makes Paper

Makes Paper wrote:
Jim Beam wrote:
Jack Daniels.
Jack Daniels' principles.
You're welcome.
If you're going to be ornery:
Jack Daniels's principles.
It's not a plural possessive.

Are you saying he doesn't possess any principles?

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