The era and length of time the athlete's WR stood/stands matters quite a bit. I honestly still can't believe how fast Jim Ryun ran in high school and think the performences buy the guys of that era to 2000-ish are underrated. Just because Jakob's 1500 times are so quick, doesn't necessarily mean he should be so high on the list. Give him another year or two though... Jakob's amazing but he's lost the last 3 1500m championship races to 3 different people.
We should take into account Jakob’s competition then. He has to contend against 3 3:27 mid guys, 2 3:29 guys, and a lot of other 3:29 guys on good days. I won’t hold his 4th place at the Olympics against him (This is what you sound like).
What’s worse: losing against 3:27-3:29 guys, or losing to a 3:26 guy and the guy who beat the 3:26 guy?
Um…Obviously the first scenario. If you are El Guerrouj, you only have to worry about one runner max in the field post 2000 Olympics. So that was Lagat in 2001, Baala in 2003 (who was only a 3:28 guy) and Lagat again in 2004. The same goes for Lagat, he has one guy to catch. Jakob, and the rest of the field, have to worry simultaneously about maybe 6? 7 runners? Who are all near the same level depending on how the race is run. It is obviously going to be harder.
Lagat also underperformed against El Guerrouj many times. That final in 2001 should have been Lagat’s to take, El Guerrouj closed a 3:30.68 in around 53.7 (Edit: it was actually closer to 54.7 seconds) seconds. Where was the lagat that ran 3:26 that season? Surely he would have contended? Nope, he lagged back and at 1200m he was almost 10 m behind. Jakob would never form a gap like that at a pace so slow. So yes, Jakob has fiercer competition, should we hold that against him?
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
What’s worse: losing against 3:27-3:29 guys, or losing to a 3:26 guy and the guy who beat the 3:26 guy?
Um…Obviously the first scenario. If you are El Guerrouj, you only have to worry about one runner max in the field post 2000 Olympics. So that was Lagat in 2001, Baala in 2003 (who was only a 3:28 guy) and Lagat again in 2004. The same goes for Lagat, he has one guy to catch. Jakob, and the rest of the field, have to worry simultaneously about maybe 6? 7 runners? Who are all near the same level depending on how the race is run. It is obviously going to be harder.
Lagat also underperformed against El Guerrouj many times. That final in 2001 should have been Lagat’s to take, El Guerrouj closed a 3:30.68 in around 53.7 (Edit: it was actually closer to 54.7 seconds) seconds. Where was the lagat that ran 3:26 that season? Surely he would have contended? Nope, he lagged back and at 1200m he was almost 10 m behind. Jakob would never form a gap like that at a pace so slow. So yes, Jakob has fiercer competition, should we hold that against him?
With all due respect to Jake Wightman, I think losing a world championship final to Jake Wightman is worse than losing a world championship final to Hicham El Guerrouj. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Um…Obviously the first scenario. If you are El Guerrouj, you only have to worry about one runner max in the field post 2000 Olympics. So that was Lagat in 2001, Baala in 2003 (who was only a 3:28 guy) and Lagat again in 2004. The same goes for Lagat, he has one guy to catch. Jakob, and the rest of the field, have to worry simultaneously about maybe 6? 7 runners? Who are all near the same level depending on how the race is run. It is obviously going to be harder.
Lagat also underperformed against El Guerrouj many times. That final in 2001 should have been Lagat’s to take, El Guerrouj closed a 3:30.68 in around 53.7 (Edit: it was actually closer to 54.7 seconds) seconds. Where was the lagat that ran 3:26 that season? Surely he would have contended? Nope, he lagged back and at 1200m he was almost 10 m behind. Jakob would never form a gap like that at a pace so slow. So yes, Jakob has fiercer competition, should we hold that against him?
The only real excuse for getting gapped like that was an illness a la Nuguse in Budapest. Lagat was only 5th in Kenyan Champs that year too...something was up between the ears.
Um…Obviously the first scenario. If you are El Guerrouj, you only have to worry about one runner max in the field post 2000 Olympics. So that was Lagat in 2001, Baala in 2003 (who was only a 3:28 guy) and Lagat again in 2004. The same goes for Lagat, he has one guy to catch. Jakob, and the rest of the field, have to worry simultaneously about maybe 6? 7 runners? Who are all near the same level depending on how the race is run. It is obviously going to be harder.
Lagat also underperformed against El Guerrouj many times. That final in 2001 should have been Lagat’s to take, El Guerrouj closed a 3:30.68 in around 53.7 (Edit: it was actually closer to 54.7 seconds) seconds. Where was the lagat that ran 3:26 that season? Surely he would have contended? Nope, he lagged back and at 1200m he was almost 10 m behind. Jakob would never form a gap like that at a pace so slow. So yes, Jakob has fiercer competition, should we hold that against him?
With all due respect to Jake Wightman, I think losing a world championship final to Jake Wightman is worse than losing a world championship final to Hicham El Guerrouj. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
I was referring to the 2024 Olympic final, which at the end of the day matters the most. Are we going to put that against Jakob when comparing him to Lagat? If he had won that race, that would have ended any conversation as he would be a 2-time Olympic Champion like Coe. But, his competition was extremely hard in that race. I am just going by your logic here applied to Jakob.
With all due respect to Jake Wightman, I think losing a world championship final to Jake Wightman is worse than losing a world championship final to Hicham El Guerrouj. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
I was referring to the 2024 Olympic final, which at the end of the day matters the most. Are we going to put that against Jakob when comparing him to Lagat? If he had won that race, that would have ended any conversation as he would be a 2-time Olympic Champion like Coe. But, his competition was extremely hard in that race. I am just going by your logic here applied to Jakob.
It makes sense too. Let’s say that compared to Jakob, we retroactively give Lagat the win in 2001. Then, we would have to give the win to Jakob who faced the deepest Olympic field in modern history. Two Olympic Golds against two WC golds? I know who I’m choosing as greater…
Um…Obviously the first scenario. If you are El Guerrouj, you only have to worry about one runner max in the field post 2000 Olympics. So that was Lagat in 2001, Baala in 2003 (who was only a 3:28 guy) and Lagat again in 2004. The same goes for Lagat, he has one guy to catch. Jakob, and the rest of the field, have to worry simultaneously about maybe 6? 7 runners? Who are all near the same level depending on how the race is run. It is obviously going to be harder.
Lagat also underperformed against El Guerrouj many times. That final in 2001 should have been Lagat’s to take, El Guerrouj closed a 3:30.68 in around 53.7 (Edit: it was actually closer to 54.7 seconds) seconds. Where was the lagat that ran 3:26 that season? Surely he would have contended? Nope, he lagged back and at 1200m he was almost 10 m behind. Jakob would never form a gap like that at a pace so slow. So yes, Jakob has fiercer competition, should we hold that against him?
The only real excuse for getting gapped like that was an illness a la Nuguse in Budapest. Lagat was only 5th in Kenyan Champs that year too...something was up between the ears.
Then why is McRunnin not counting that against Lagat? who was sick and failed to keep up in a 3:30 race that was finished in a 54 high second last lap. Lagat prepared badly for that race, just like Jakob did in 2023. Should we give Jakob the edge since he lost to Kerr in a faster finishing time and in a field with greater depth? (Nordas and Kipsang in 3:29 mid to high)?
This is why this event is so great though, it’s a fun thought exercise to rank these runners in the most competitive middle distance to distance event ever. The 1500m truly is the “blue riband event”
With all due respect to Jake Wightman, I think losing a world championship final to Jake Wightman is worse than losing a world championship final to Hicham El Guerrouj. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
I was referring to the 2024 Olympic final, which at the end of the day matters the most. Are we going to put that against Jakob when comparing him to Lagat? If he had won that race, that would have ended any conversation as he would be a 2-time Olympic Champion like Coe. But, his competition was extremely hard in that race. I am just going by your logic here applied to Jakob.
Comparing the 2024 Olympic final with the one 20 years before, we'll still need to agree to disagree. I think finishing 0.12 behind El Guerrouj is better than finishing 0.59 behind Hocker, 0.45 behind Kerr, and 0.44 behind Nuguse.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
I was referring to the 2024 Olympic final, which at the end of the day matters the most. Are we going to put that against Jakob when comparing him to Lagat? If he had won that race, that would have ended any conversation as he would be a 2-time Olympic Champion like Coe. But, his competition was extremely hard in that race. I am just going by your logic here applied to Jakob.
Comparing the 2024 Olympic final with the one 20 years before, we'll still need to agree to disagree. I think finishing 0.12 behind El Guerrouj is better than finishing 0.59 behind Hocker, 0.45 behind Kerr, and 0.44 behind Nuguse.
Losing to a 3:27mid fitness El Guerrouj who was suffering with breathing problems due to allergies isn't better than losing to three 3:27 guys while leading the whole way. The 2024 Olympic Final also included Kessler, Laros, Cheruiyot, Komen (3:28-3:29 guys), and Nordas who almost nipped Jakob the year before. 2004 Olympic Final had Rui Silva? Timothy Kiptanui?
#10 Kip Keino KIPCHOGE KEINO was a sensational runner - in the Games of 1968 & 1972 he was winner of FOUR Olympic medals across the 1500m [🥇🥈], 5000m [🥈] and the 3000m Steeplechase [🥇]!!!🌟 KEINO was and remains a true inspiration - he went on to become Chair of the Kenyan Olympic Committee and his Legend lives on…today we celebrate KIP KEINO as the Men’s 1500m no.10 GREATEST OF ALL-TIME…💫🐐
#9 Luigi Beccali BECCALI was the first Italian to win Olympic Gold in running when becoming the 1500m Champion at the 1932 LA Games - he backed that up with European Gold in 1934, Olympic Bronze in 1936 [Berlin] and European Bronze in 1938!🥇🥇🥉🥉 Today we celebrate LUIGI BECCALI as the Men’s 1500m No.9 GREATEST OF ALL-TIME…💫🐐
#8 Steve Ovett OVETT was a giant of the 1500m with dominance of the distance few can boast…best highlighted by the fact that between 1977-1980 he won 45 consecutive races over the Mile and 1500m alongside several World Records!!!🔥 European 1500m Gold in 1978 was followed by Olympic Bronze in 1980 [Moscow] and of course his most famous win, that 800m Olympic Gold!🥇🥇🥉 Awarded an OBE [Officer of the British Empire] in 2000, today we celebrate STEVE OVETT as the Men’s 1500m No.8 GREATEST OF ALL-TIME…💫🐐
#7 Paavo Nurmi The ‘Flying Finn’…NURMI is quite simply an Olympic Legend and one of the All-Time Greats of Distance running - emphasised by this incredible statistic: in total he won TWELVE Olympic Medals [9x GOLD!] in 3 Games [1920-1928] across the 1500m, 5000m, 10000m, 3000m Steeplechase, Cross Country & Distance Team Events!!!🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇🥈🥈🥈 Today we celebrate PAAVO NURMI as the Men’s 1500m No.7 GREATEST OF ALL-TIME…💫🐐
#6 Gunder Hagg An early proponent of Fartlek training, HÄGG broke a total of 15 WORLD RECORDS during his running career [10 of them within just 3-months in 1942]!!!🔥 HÄGG’s prime form during the years of World War II extinguished any Olympic opportunities, but his Legend lives on; in fact he was the first athlete to run 5000m in under 14 minutes [a record that lasted 12 years!] and it also took several years before his 1945 Mile World Record of 4 mins 1.4 secs was beaten [by a certain Roger Bannister in 1954, becoming the first man to go sub-4]…🌟
#5 Herb Elliot ELLIOTT was a sensation - he burst onto the elite running scene in 1957 and proceeded to dominate…Commonwealth Gold in both the Mile and 880 yards came first in 1958, swiftly followed by multiple World Records and 1500m Gold at the 1960 Rome Olympics!🔥 Thereafter, ELLIOTT enrolled at Cambridge University and ended his incredible athletics career aged just 22!!! A successful business career followed [especially with Puma, for whom he became their CEO of North America]…⭐
#4 Asbel Kiprop Given KIPROP’s doping ban for EPO in 2019, his high ranking will understandably rankle amongst many. For the record, we are very strongly anti-doping, however, our HBM Rankings are about absolute performance and achievement throughout History via official and ratified records to achieve a fair ranking for athletes across the generations - to that end, we specifically use IOC & World Athletics-approved marks that already strip the record books accordingly to inform our assessments. Against this backdrop, KIPROP’s achievements in the 1500m are to a level very few can match - his medal haul and elite longevity are bettered by only two athletes and he remains the third fastest man in History.
#3 Seb Coe Where to start… •TWO-TIME 1500m Olympic Champion [1980 & 1984]!🥇🥇 •The only man to have won 1500m Olympic Gold TWICE!🔥 •TWELVE Indoor & Outdoor WORLD RECORDS across the 800m, 1000m, 1500m & Mile!💨 •Chair of LOCOG in 2012 [London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games & Paralympic Games]!🏅 •Chair of the BOA [British Olympic Association] 2012-2016!👏 •President of World Athletics!🏃🏻 •Chancellor of Loughborough University!🎓 •BBC Sports Personality of the Year [1979]!🌟 •MP, Knight, Life Peer & Lord [UK]!🎩 Today we celebrate SEB COE as the Men’s 1500m No.3 GREATEST OF ALL-TIME…💫🐐
#2 Noureddine Morceli By the age of just 20, MORCELI was the 1500m World No.1…from there World Records and medals came a plenty…the climax of which was winning Olympic GOLD in 1996 [Atlanta]!!!🥇 His PB from 1995 still ranks fifth on the All-Time List 30 years later; for many he remains the greatest Miler ever…🔥 Today we celebrate NOUREDDINE MORCELI as the Men’s 1500m No.2 GREATEST OF ALL-TIME…💫🐐
#1 Hicham El Guerrouj
Nothing else needed to be said
Agree or disagree?
Having Kiprop at 4 is a disgrace.
HÄGG’s prime form during the years of World War II extinguished any Olympic opportunities,
He was lucky that he was able to run full-time, get paid for it (all this decades before the professional era), while all those who would have been his rivals (except his fellow Swedes) were fighting and dying during the years of World War II.
Coe should be above Morceli. He is the only man still to defend his Olympic 1500 title. Obviously Morceli had a much faster pb, but we know why that was.
I think they just mean that Aouita left some of his potential 1500 legacy on the table because he opted instead to compete in the 5k at the ‘84 OGs and ‘87 WCs (winning gold in both) and the 800 at the ‘88 OGs (winning bronze). There’s no doubt that Aouita only having one bronze in global 1500 championships (‘83 WCs) limits his ranking as a 1500 GOAT.
That was his choice!
I'm sure if he'd of known the glory of being top ranked in the LRC list of top 1500 runners of all time, he would've chosen differently.
I think they just mean that Aouita left some of his potential 1500 legacy on the table because he opted instead to compete in the 5k at the ‘84 OGs and ‘87 WCs (winning gold in both) and the 800 at the ‘88 OGs (winning bronze). There’s no doubt that Aouita only having one bronze in global 1500 championships (‘83 WCs) limits his ranking as a 1500 GOAT.
That was his choice!
I'm sure if he'd of known the glory of being top ranked in the LRC list of top 1500 runners of all time, he would've chosen differently.
I think they just mean that Aouita left some of his potential 1500 legacy on the table because he opted instead to compete in the 5k at the ‘84 OGs and ‘87 WCs (winning gold in both) and the 800 at the ‘88 OGs (winning bronze). There’s no doubt that Aouita only having one bronze in global 1500 championships (‘83 WCs) limits his ranking as a 1500 GOAT.
That was his choice!
I'm sure if he'd of known the glory of being top ranked in the LRC list of top 1500 runners of all time, he would've chosen differently.
I bet it hurts Aouita every single day. He waited until he thought Coe, Ovett, and Cram were all done (in 88), but got injured by another Brit - Peter Elliott in the 800 final, and he himself was pretty much done after 89.
I would definitely put Jim Ryun in the top 10. He dominated his era and ran great times on cinder tracks with crappy shoes.
0 Olympic gold really hurts his legacy, more like top 15-20.
Correct. US bias here. True, he had WR's and was TnF news #1 in 66 and 67, but that's hardly "dominating his era" considering no gold or even any success (or much visibilty) outside the USA, sorta like Pre. I was a runner in the UK at the time. Basically a phenom. I'd say 15-20th. Admirable guy, though.
While we all hold our noses at some on the list, I like the idea of a ranking while taking PED's out of the equation (for once). Obviously, we are 5 yrs too early because Jakob's story is not yet been told. He could end up at the top.
Yes, you make a good point about preeminence, but that goes back to the point I made about not penalizing Lagat just because he happened to be born the same year as the GOAT. TFN ranked Christian Cantwell the world's #1 shot putter 4 years in a row, but I wouldn't rank him above Joe Kovacs, who's only been #1 once, because I recognize Kovacs has the misfortune of competing in the same era as the GOAT. I think we need to take competition into account when we look at medals and rankings, particularly in the case of athletes such as Lagat and Kovacs who were contemporaries of the GOAT in their event.
According to the World Athletics head-to-head feature, here is a list of races in which Lagat finished 2nd behind El G:
Paris Golden League meet, 2000
Paris Golden League meet, 2001
World Championships, 2001
Zurich Golden League meet, 2001
Brussels Golden League meet, 2001
Grand Prix Final, 2001
Paris Golden League meet, 2002
Monaco Golden League meet, 2002
Brussels Golden League meet, 2002
Berlin Golden League meet, 2002
Grand Prix Final, 2002
Zurich Golden League meet, 2003
Olympics, 2004
I'm not holding those losses against Lagat when comparing him to runners not named Hicham. If we agree that El G is the GOAT, then Lagat should have lost those races. Had it not been for El G, Lagat would have ranked #1 in the world in 2001 and 2002, and he'd have three global championship gold medals in the 1500 instead of one.
Re: PBs, you're right about Lagat being able to draft behind El G. But we also need to recognize the massive advantage Jakob has with Wavelight.
For me, it's hard to get over the visual of Lagat battling El G to the line at the 2004 Olympics. El G is the GOAT, and Lagat was right there running neck and neck with him. That's a top 5 guy to me.
Your comparison with the shot put athletes doesn’t really apply because Kovacs has more golds in both the Olympic and WC events. So obviously it is close but Kovacs would be greater.
Jakob is an Olympic Champion in the 1500m, beating Cheruiyot who was very close in SB and Kerr who ran the race of his life in Tokyo in 3:29. Competition is relative, it doesn’t matter if somebody is a 3:26 guy vs a 3:26 compared to a 3:28 guy vs 3:28 guy. The “competition” is the same in that case and it takes the right tactics and day to win. Jakob won that at the Olympics where it matters most while Lagat couldn’t win until one world championship which is not as great as Olympics.
Not to mention, Jakob has also run far more times under 3:30 than Lagat. He is only behind El G in this statistic so by this measure Jakob is greater too. If we look at PB, drafting is worth about 0.5 seconds per lap. Jakob ran his last 400m alone while Lagat drafted the whole way. So that puts Jakob around 3:26.2. Wavelight simply allows for even splits but since Lagat and Jakob are different types of runners (lagat better 800m while Jakob better 3000m) we don’t actually know how big of the benefit Jakob has from wavelights and how much runners like El G and lagat gain from it. Maybe they run slower because they aren’t as endurance based?
All in all, I still think Jakob edges Lagat for these reasons. Not to mention the World Indoor title and Indoor 1500/Mile WRs as well.
We should take into account Jakob’s competition then. He has to contend against 3 3:27 mid guys, 2 3:29 guys, and a lot of other 3:29 guys on good days. I won’t hold his 4th place at the Olympics against him (This is what you sound like).
What’s worse: losing against 3:27-3:29 guys, or losing to a 3:26 guy and the guy who beat the 3:26 guy?
El Guerrouj's best time over 1500m that season was 3:27.63. Lagat as well. That is nearly the same level as Hocker, Nuguse, and Kerr in 2024. You can give Lagat 2001, although I found 2023 to have a more impressive finish in Jakob/Kerr. But, you have to give Jakob 2024 if you are trying to compare competition to 2004, which would catapult him miles ahead of Lagat.
Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win a LetsRun t-shirt.Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win one of 10 LetsRun t-shirts.