With modern training he would have much more strength. 40X400 in HS is NOT the best way to train. His "easy" morning runs were at like 5:30 pace and then intervals in the evening.
I think this is an interesting question that is impossible for us to answer. People respond differently to various training methods. Bob Timmons’ brutal swimming-inspired training would crush 999 out of 1000, but I think there’s a possibility that Ryun was that 1 in a thousand who benefited hugely from it. The “proof” (not actually provable, I know) is in the pudding: he ran 3:55.3 in high school on this training.
Yes, it’s all speculation, but Ryun may have had the greatest natural talent of any miler ever. If I recall correctly, he didn’t start running until sophomore year of hs, and the first time he raced a mile he ran 5:38. By the end of sophomore year he ran 4:07, and yes, he ran 3:51 by graduation. In just 3 years of training he went from 5:38 to 3:51 and holding the wr by 2 seconds! No, I don’t think Jakob or Hocker or any of them could match this. If you measured all of their V02 maxes before they started training, I suspect Ryun would dominate. Now how fast he would go with better shoes and surface and different training, who knows.
I’d also like to remind everybody that Ryun was a household name and American hero. He was on the cover of sports illustrated (a very very big deal) seven times. No US runner has ever or will ever approach his level of fame.
The simple fact that a runner from the 1960's is still relevant speak volumes to just how special a runner he was. We can take many other runners that were record setters from their eras and put them up against current runners. I think they would all be relatively equal when adjusted for training, shoes, life style, etc. Humans are not evolving into faster runners.
I think this is an interesting question that is impossible for us to answer. People respond differently to various training methods. Bob Timmons’ brutal swimming-inspired training would crush 999 out of 1000, but I think there’s a possibility that Ryun was that 1 in a thousand who benefited hugely from it. The “proof” (not actually provable, I know) is in the pudding: he ran 3:55.3 in high school on this training.
Yes, it’s all speculation, but Ryun may have had the greatest natural talent of any miler ever. If I recall correctly, he didn’t start running until sophomore year of hs, and the first time he raced a mile he ran 5:38. By the end of sophomore year he ran 4:07, and yes, he ran 3:51 by graduation. In just 3 years of training he went from 5:38 to 3:51 and holding the wr by 2 seconds! No, I don’t think Jakob or Hocker or any of them could match this. If you measured all of their V02 maxes before they started training, I suspect Ryun would dominate. Now how fast he would go with better shoes and surface and different training, who knows.
I’d also like to remind everybody that Ryun was a household name and American hero. He was on the cover of sports illustrated (a very very big deal) seven times. No US runner has ever or will ever approach his level of fame.
*He didn’t run 3:51 in high school, he ran 3:51 as a freshman at KU.
You cannot parse the talent from the training in his incredible progression. Was he an unbelievable 1 in a million talent? Yes, obviously. Would he have run 3:55 in high school if he hadn’t been paired with Bob Timmons’s insane training load? I’m confident in guessing “No.”
Ryun matches up with his leg speed, but strength wise, his indoor 8:25 and 13:38 times don’t. Maybe 3:45, and that might be a stretch.
With modern training Ryun would be much stronger. You obviously don’t understand the point of the thread.
I don’t see the need to insult me. His 2-mile and 5000m times are facts while your “with modern training” could not be more speculative.
Ryun ran 90-100 qualify miles per week with high volume intervals and his training was not all that dissimilar to what Ingebrigtsen does. What’s this modern training you’re referring to?
The simple fact that a runner from the 1960's is still relevant speak volumes to just how special a runner he was. We can take many other runners that were record setters from their eras and put them up against current runners. I think they would all be relatively equal when adjusted for training, shoes, life style, etc. Humans are not evolving into faster runners.
This is a great take: anyone who throws out times like 3:24 or 3:41 is probably kidding themselves. There are at least 4 guys currently capable of 3:26-3:27 at their best and the likelihood is that Ryun would be in there with them. Like you said, he was a special runner, and my guesses are he would ultimately run 1:41-2:11-3:26-3:43-7:26-13:0x in this era. Dude was fast, like a faster, even more talented Hobbs Kessler.
Yes to the 1 in a thousand who could do well with the brutal training. Even with the disaster of Pickett's Charge, a few Confederates made it to the stone wall.
Yes, it’s all speculation, but Ryun may have had the greatest natural talent of any miler ever. If I recall correctly, he didn’t start running until sophomore year of hs, and the first time he raced a mile he ran 5:38. By the end of sophomore year he ran 4:07, and yes, he ran 3:51 by graduation. In just 3 years of training he went from 5:38 to 3:51 and holding the wr by 2 seconds! No, I don’t think Jakob or Hocker or any of them could match this. If you measured all of their V02 maxes before they started training, I suspect Ryun would dominate. Now how fast he would go with better shoes and surface and different training, who knows.
I’d also like to remind everybody that Ryun was a household name and American hero. He was on the cover of sports illustrated (a very very big deal) seven times. No US runner has ever or will ever approach his level of fame.
*He didn’t run 3:51 in high school, he ran 3:51 as a freshman at KU.
You cannot parse the talent from the training in his incredible progression. Was he an unbelievable 1 in a million talent? Yes, obviously. Would he have run 3:55 in high school if he hadn’t been paired with Bob Timmons’s insane training load? I’m confident in guessing “No.”
Ahh yes, my error. 3:55, defeated Snell. It was a different time. Imagine if an American high school senior defeated Jakob or Hocker in a DL race this summer? Insane.
Pretty clear Timmons was swatting flies w a sledgehammer; In this era a 17y old Ryun would run ~1:46 / <3:55 w 50mi/week roughly 2/3 the training load. He would avoid racing anything over 2000m and run something close to 3:46 marks similar to Kessler and Martin
People forget that drug testing was lax, inside rails not always in place and track measurements a bit inconsistent… so I don’t believe he’d go any faster than Kessler or Martin. My sense is both have more talent than Ryun.
In 1967 in Bakersfield, Ryun turned in what might have been the best mile ever. Top runners will take a shot at the current record this weekend in Eugene.
It's common letsrun knowledge that Ryun would have run 1:39/3:24/3:41 with modern synthetic track and rabbits to the bell.
RIP Ventolin
Back in the day the very top guys and coaches marveled over Ryan's ability and said he did not come close to his potential in terms of times, due to horrendous set ups, rather no set up.
Along with Coe, Ryun's talent a lot of knowers see them as a quantum leap above the rest.
Don't know what happened really with Coe to top out at 329. seems his aerobic isn't quite what the lads today have achieved, and then there are the hacks a plenty. In any event Coe should have run much faster without shoes, tracks. hacks.
And Ovett had similar speed to Coe but stopped developing it early. Both guys were 21 low 200m.
My speculation is that Ryun could run 445 mile today in a good race today, that is 6 seconds, just based on track, shoes and pacing.
but don't think his aerobic conditioning would allow him to make it in the stretch of a 342 343 mile.
it will never happen, but i'd like to see a challenge, set up an average good cinder track, and challenge anyone to run a solo 351. if someone does it, then try coming through 1200 in 259. and hitting the 351.
He’s as talented as Alan Webb. 3:44 high at the absolute best with all the tech. give him some good sauce I could see him going 3:43 low
I like this thinking. id say Webb was more talented though, especially aerobically….and he still ran a 1:43 800m
both of them burned out pretty hard and were strong, muscular dudes. So, I think they are a good comparison physically. They used up all of their game tickets early because their bodies matured quickly.
Hobbs Kessler another similarity, but his progress has been more measured and he’ll likely have a longer career than both of them.
no way the best talent of all time was a guy born in Kansas in the 1940’s who got crushed at altitude though.
Ryun is probably one of the most talented runners ever born. If he had a Jakob-like upbringing with access to the knowledge and technology of today, I can see him running 3:42.
Jakob will possibly still run faster barring illness and injury.
Sorry Steffe...not ChatGPT. Just because the post was longer than two sentences doesn't mean AI. Your clue was the paragraph commenting on coaching philosophy with sarcasm. AI does not do sarcasm. And the reference to Google. AI does not reference itself.
I started running in 1968. I own out-of-print books from the era chronicling the detailed history of Jim Ryun and I actually read the books. He was much admired at the time. Read it again and learn something from a human.
I registered under "Cinderfella" after you posted. I did not notice this on page 1. I guess Letsrun has a gremlin. No, this is not AI. But it is weird.
Sorry Steffe...not ChatGPT. Just because the post was longer than two sentences doesn't mean AI. Your clue was the paragraph commenting on coaching philosophy with sarcasm. AI does not do sarcasm. And the reference to Google. AI does not reference itself.
I started running in 1968. I own out-of-print books from the era chronicling the detailed history of Jim Ryun and I actually read the books. He was much admired at the time. Read it again and learn something from a human.
No, I read the books and remembered what I read as well as following the sport at the time. And then I gave my opinion and made my case; not a citation. You know... the point of the thread. Why the disrespect? Why don't you add something of value to the conversation instead being a troll?
these hypotheticals are just lame to me. obviously he would be faster, but there isn't a number or a formula you can give it. I 100% believe that the most efficient runners get less out of innovation than the pack that follows them. That is to say that you can't make perfect MORE perfect.
It is pretty ridiculous that people think they can say for sure what he could or couldn't run...
But one thing that hasn't even been mentioned in all this and that is the actual mechanics of running were different on cinder tracks. There certainly wasn't "bounce" from cinder tracks... but there was grip. Those long spikes went down into the cinders and helped propel you forward.
Simply put... runners of today would have to train on cinders for a while to get used to different running mechanics. I am not a biomechanics expert but what I remember is that on cinders you used your hamstrings a bit more to take advantage of the grip you had on the track. That was the advantage the track gave you as opposed to push off. Cinders probably diminished push off.
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