Since you mention "Jack Daniels book" let's look at page 46 in his 4th edition:
One protocol to try to achieve max HR is *Several* hard 2-min repeats...or 4 x 800m. Much like a Vo2max workout that is progressive with minimal rest we are looking to spike the HR progressively and not flood the system with lactate too quickly like a *Single* all-out 800m Race would. Hence the volume of the workout and repeating efforts over 6-8min worth of work.
We could also say that 4 x 800m (about a 3200m worth of velocity at Vo2max work) on a short rest (less than 2-min between each rep to allow HR not to drop too much) is very similar to racing an all-out evenly paced 3km or 2-mile at Velocity at Vo2max. After about 5-6min (1600m to 2km in for many) you start getting up over 95-98% of max HR and then for the final few minutes you can accelerate with a "kick" and spike that up to 100%..
My hunch, admittedly based on nothing, is that in a normal race setting (not lab), most normal people are probably get as close as they'll ever get to their true max HR in about a mile or so.
My hunch is that such people are going out too fast, unless you mean the first mile of a 3K.
Yes indeed. Some out too fast, others too timid to attack the whole race so they basically give it a 5K effort until the kick. Again, I accept Sage's argument that the theoretical ideal way to get to max HR is in a perfectly paced 3K, and that for an elite athlete like Sage that actually works. I just doubt very much that most normal runners--the kind who hope all the stars align to help them break 20 minutes in their local Turkey Trot--can execute a 3K well enough to do that.
Racing my first 5k in 8 years. If I pace perfectly I hope to hit max HR at the last 400m. I imagine after about 5 minutes I'll be 95% max HR and creep up to 99%, while hitting 100% last 400m. Hoping not to go out too hard and hit max HR 11-13 minutes in, as I could break 19, merely 3 minutes from my old glory
This is the correct answer. For an elite it may as well be a 5km as even a 12-14min race for a very experienced runner would probably be close enough. (Elites can hold 100% Vo2max and therefore about 100% max HR for several minutes at a time essentially). For most probably a 3km.... Here're the kicker though: You have to pace it perfectly and get everything out of yourself! (pretty even splits to maybe a very slight negative split effort).
Agreed.
For a 15:00+ hobbyjogger the 5k is just too long to expect max HR.
They can hit it in the 3k, though, or a 5:00+ mile if they're not so fast.
I only ever really hit max HR in the last repeat of a 5x200m session at 400m pace, 5 min rest. Therefore I'm guessing 400 might be the most likely.
The question and many of the answers don't take pre-race warm up into account. If you are thinking about how long it takes to get from a warmed up resting or recovery HR up to max HR, then the "lag" in HR response to catch up to race effort load probably means 1500 is about the shortest race distance for the HR to adjust to the load being placed on it. When I was running the 400 in college, I wanted to be in the blocks with an HR already up to support maximum effort, which for me meant 140-150. I would hit a 195-200 HR by the finish.
exactly. and that is the point, to have max heart rate going. as in you go faster, that is for a limited duration.
but in the distances, running at max heart rate, you die. the duration is way too long.
and if you don't die, well you are certainly not running, or can't run at your max heart rate.
The highest HR I've ever gotten (209) was during a tempo run on my first day of college practice. I was slightly out of shape (I hadn't run in a week because of shin splints) and it was 85-90°, humid and sunny. Plus I wanted to prove I belonged on the team, so I pushed harder than I usually would in a workout.
I also held 205-206 (so 98% of max) for the whole second half of a 5 mile race once, then got up to 208 in my final kick. That's probably the closest I've come to my true limit. Definitely in the top 5 most painful races I've run.
It's actually possible that my max is higher though, because I usually don't wear a watch during races. Last week it paid off, I nearly got outkicked but the guy didn't outlean me because he leaned back to stop his watch on the line lmao.
I think the highest HR will come when something is going wrong-normally bc of heat/humidity. I bet the true max HR test would be running an hour dehydrated in Miami at tempo pace and running last 800 all out. I think in a perfect race, the runner is so fit and under control that the HR might not reach true max.
I feel like it's probably the 400, 600, 800, 1000, or 1500, but I can't find any real studies or conclusive answers on it. Thoughts?
NOT the 400. It takes longer than that to reach your max. I would say a 1500 would probably get the old ticket going a max speed. For some people maybe even longer like a 3000..
Furthermore, you write: "higher vo2 max =/= higher heart rate"....uh what the heck is that supposed to mean? When one is progressively reaching actual Vo2max they are also approaching 100% max Heartrate....
We aren't talking about a "higher Vo2max"....we're talking about 100% Vo2max. And we're not talking about a "higher heart rate"....we are talking about 100% maximum Heartrate.
I actually think many people fail to reach their true 100% max HR (even in a race or Vo2max test) or scientific study. It's very, very hard and requires excellent pacing and an appropriate ramp protocol (if a Vo2max test). People think they are going hard, and their effort may feel like 100% (it's a 100% RPE), but often the pacing has to be perfect to pull out those final few percent imo. Mentally it's very very hard.
Since you mention "Jack Daniels book" let's look at page 46 in his 4th edition:
One protocol to try to achieve max HR is *Several* hard 2-min repeats...or 4 x 800m. Much like a Vo2max workout that is progressive with minimal rest we are looking to spike the HR progressively and not flood the system with lactate too quickly like a *Single* all-out 800m Race would. Hence the volume of the workout and repeating efforts over 6-8min worth of work.
We could also say that 4 x 800m (about a 3200m worth of velocity at Vo2max work) on a short rest (less than 2-min between each rep to allow HR not to drop too much) is very similar to racing an all-out evenly paced 3km or 2-mile at Velocity at Vo2max. After about 5-6min (1600m to 2km in for many) you start getting up over 95-98% of max HR and then for the final few minutes you can accelerate with a "kick" and spike that up to 100%..
"What the heck is "higher vo2 max =/= higher heart rate" supposed to mean?:
You linked your "evidence" - a study that showed that in the 4 vo2max tests at 5, 8, 12 or 16 minutes the 8 minute test would result in the highest vo2max score. What I am saying is that them having a higher vo2max score at the 8 minute test does not necessarily mean that their heart rate was the highest at the 8 minute test.
That your system is more efficient at consuming oxygen after 8 minutes can be for different reasons than merely your heart beating faster. Do you agree?
Me being owned by Sage quoting Jack Daniels, as another user said: Let's first see the full quote from JD 4th edition: As a runner, probably the easiest way to determine your maximum heart rate is to run several hard 2-minute uphill runs. Get a heart-rate reading at the top of the first hill run, and if your heart rate is higher the second time up, go for a third time and see if that is associated with an even higher heart rate. If it is not higher, you can be pretty sure that reading is maximum. If the third run is higher than the second, then try a fourth, or as many as needed before you do not see an increase in heart rate compared with the previous run. If no hill is available, you could just do a few 800-meter runs at a solid pace and do the same comparisons between repeated efforts.
Please read the quote carefully and what Sage C. took away from that quote. Very dishonest interpretation!
Sounds to me like Jack Daniels thinks it is very possible to hit mhr even on the first run! It does not sound like he thinks you are most likely to only hit mhr at the 4th run, but more that they are there to ensure that it was mhr.
He does not say that the rest needs to be short and definitely does not say that this has anything to do with a vo2 max workout as Sage implies in his answer. He also says nothing about "flooding the system with lactate too quickly."
Sage makes it sound like Jack D might as well have said 'do a 3000m to test max heart rate' because this test is a workout that is essentially a 3000m. If I were to try testing my mhr after reading Daniels, I would go out and hammer a few 800m with longer breaks.
I am actually curious as to how other posters read Jack D's suggested test.
I don't run the shorter stuff, but my experience as a masters runner (46-66) over the past two decades is that I can hit my max in the final sprint of a 5K, if I'm determined to go to the bottom of the well. This usually happens in late season races when I've got a basic sense of just how hard "extremely hard" is--what it feels like.
My max at the beginning of this period was 200, and I occasionally notched that. (One marker of that being my true max is that I could sustain 170, my 85% HR, for a long time once I got warmed up. I ran a marathon at that average HR.) But over the years it has slipped. Right now it's 182-83, and I hit that in the final few steps of a couple of 5Ks where I'd been on the redline the whole final mile (95-6% of max) and somehow managed to push a lot harder in the final kick. It always takes that final kick to hit it.
Racing my first 5k in 8 years. If I pace perfectly I hope to hit max HR at the last 400m. I imagine after about 5 minutes I'll be 95% max HR and creep up to 99%, while hitting 100% last 400m. Hoping not to go out too hard and hit max HR 11-13 minutes in, as I could break 19, merely 3 minutes from my old glory
That's exactly my experience, although I'm hitting a bit less than 99% in that final mile. But that final 400, or maybe 200, is where you're sucking sludge in order to get that last BPM.