Almgren in a podcast after Valencia

Saying that Jakob haven't been challenged by a good runner (except Nordås!) makes it really hard to take anything of this seriously. If we look at the list over the fastest 5000m runners in history, and check their head to head count against Jakob we get the following:

#1 Cheptegei 0-2 Jakob
#2 Gebrhivet 2-3 Jakob
#4 Kejelcha 0-3 Jakob
#7 Aregawi 0-1 Jakob
#8 Kiplimo 0-1 Jakob
#9 Haile Bekele 1-2 Jakob
#10 Barega 2-2 Jakob
#11 Katir 3-1 Jakob
#12 Jacob Krop 4-2 Jakob
(...)

How are not the #1, #2, #4, #7, #8, #9, 10 etc fastest 5000m runner of all time good runners?

There is no point in having this discussion if it all happens in an alternative world where good is bad, up is down and forward is back, olympic medals are worthless and should be thrown in the bin and Cheptegei, Gebrhivet, Kejelcha, Aregawi, Kiplimo etc are not good runners.

I have no reason to not believe Almgren (which have performed really well at the longer distances using the same system) when he says that he things Jakob have potential. If he ever will be able to capitalize on that is a different matter.

See the previous post to see that this isn't completely accurate either.

Cheptegeis WR is 1 minute and 13 seconds faster than Sondre Moens PR. Cheptegeis speed during the WR equals a 400m time in 1:03, so he would lap Sondre Moen, as would the next one on the list in his prime (Bekele), but no other runners in history would be able to that - certainly not "a bunch of other africans".

PS: Moen "was never good in the 10.000m" have a 10th place from the world championships in the 10.000m. Horrible stuff.

Just a couple more of your helpful exaggerations/alternative facts?

The whole point with the comparison is to show that Jakob in fact has performed better over 10k than Sondre Norstad Moen, a 2:05 marathoner and a WC competitor in the 10.000.

Corrected.

You must read things in context -I think nobody (neither I) thought Jakob was spent in the beginning or midways, or after 3k of a 5000m. “Had to give a gap quite early” doesn’t of course mean that he couldn’t follow some additional meters, it just means that he for some reason thought it was smart to let the leaders go. And the question is why (when he clearly was able to run even faster than that later in the race). But I think you understand all that -so I must ask you: Are you here to pick a fight over wordings, just like you (and others do to Armstronglivs), and win a discussion, or are you here to exchange views….?

"Jakob’s boldness and many stunts and his outspokenness also open up for some afterthoughts for a overthinking worrisome guy like me." And so we all have to suffer.

You treat JI's off the cuff remarks as if they are meticulously researched statements.

Your persistence on denying JI's 'good races' over 5000m is just painful to read. And even more so as you chose the word 'races' over, say' fast times' - where I assume you think that anything 'slower' than about 12.40 is just middle of the pack.

Your stuff abut 200/400 'analogy' with 3k/5k or whatever endurance events seems mainly arith based rather than any attempt to refce the hugely different physiological shifts and differences. Look at the energy requirements of 200 to 400, and how they differ. Then look at the (obvious) v different energy requirements of 3k and 5k; and notice how the differences between 3k and 5k are not in same ballpark as those between 200 and 400.

he either thought it was smart to let them go for a minute, while knowing he can bring them back in, or going deep into the pain cave for just under 13 minutes is a skill that can be refined over time, and Jakob just wasn't quite there in 2021, so he momentarily let off the gas before getting back into it. Or it could have been something else. who knows.

You are just repeating that Jakob has met all the best -something I never have denied (but on the contrary affirmed). But you don’t meet my argument that he hasn’t met them at their best!

And this up and down thing -no, things are nuanced. An OG final can be the best and most telling race of the year. Or it can be the opposite. -We have to analyse the details and each race, and go under the surface.

It’s not an alternative world to claim that Olympic medals should be worthless sometimes. Of course they will bear the prestige, but prestige is often a false and superficial thing. But some medals are very earned and valuable because the performance behind them were great. But Jakob’s OG 5000m wasn’t. Even Tim Hutchings said it felt too easy…

Almgren said some time before Jakob’s HM debut that he thought the Norwegian could run in the 57’s… -Yeah, sure..!

Lastly: Maybe Jakob thinned down his track training more than I thought he did. But in May (I think it was) 2024 he said that he would be even more cautious not to thin down the training, because he had so little base -he would instead go for competitions as his sharpening…

I couldn't disagree more. The Paris 1500 was probably the most important race so far in defining his legacy (even more than Tokyo) as he would have joined both El G and Coe in a very exclusive list of runners to pull off the 1500 / 5000 AND the 1500 title defense if he had won it.

And I say this as someone who values WRs very highly and sometimes more than Olympic Gold.

Calling that race "an unimportant clown race" couldn't be further from the truth! It was probably the greatest 1500 in any Olympic games or WC to date - 3 guys in a 3:27 race with a kick has never been seen before.

Of course, if Jakob achieves his goal of breaking every distance record, then he will still become the greatest runner of all time. But Paris was certainly a lost opportunity, and I think it's obvious that he desperately wants to improve his championship record in the future.

Remember: The gap in the 2021 Florence 5000m didn´t open up in front of Jakob it opened up in front of Haile Bekele who was 2 places ahead of Jakob in the field. It took a short while before Jakob realized there was a gap but then started the chase. He closed the gap slowly since Cheptegei who leaded the frontgroup ran 61 sec laps.

I still can´t see why my Norwegian friend CuriousDude can make a big deal out of that. Yes Jakob reacted perhaps a little late but he caught the lead group when they ran the fastest laps of the race (apart from the last one) and ended up winning the race convincingly. I even think he could have won in 12:45 that day if Cheptegei had been able to run some more 61 laps.

Here is the Florence 5000m race video

Good post. I'll have to go back and watch. What you say reminds me of the way Tuohy got caught flat footed in the 22 indoor 3000 championship, when Roe took off early.

Went back and watched. Jakob dropped between 6:30 and 7:00 into the race when runners in front of him didn't respond to CHeptegei. He wisely took his time, and closed the gap before 9:00 into the race.

There is too much made of him "getting dropped."

“Everything is relative” and “context is all” and “the Devil is in the details” -if you don’t respect those three premises it will be almost impossible to have a discussion with you, because everything will be a fight over wordings, and the lack of details and analysis will never get us under the superficial levels.

Some examples: If I talk about myself, in a context of ability to realise one’s talent, I could say rightly (and to stress an important point) “I was never a good runner”, despite having a medal in my drawer that has the letters “Norgesmester” (“Norwegian Champion”), because the performance behind the medal isn’t as good as it sounds. ( Not even compared to my other far better performances). And if I relate to Jakob’s latest National 1500m gold (front running 3.34 flat in heavy rain and wind, winning with more than a 100m) my performance was absolutely not good. So medals aren’t the same. But of course I was “good” compared to the common man. And of course Moen as Norway’s best 10000m runner was good compared to other Norwegians, but he was not a good 10000m runner compared to what he was in the marathon (beat the world champ, and became the best non African born ever). So saying Moen was a good 10000m runner based on a 10th placing is an offence to him compared to his other achievements.. And I could go on and on -when Jakob says his fourth placing was a bad race, you could arrest his claim by saying even a 10th placing is good, but then you don’t understand that we live in a relative world… And I could add: If you don’t understand that there’s a difference between a 12.35 shape Cheptegei and an injured one, and a 12.36 Gebrhiwet and a sick one, or a rested Fisher and a leggy one, then all discussion becomes hard…

We are talking about Jakob here -an already legendary runner, f.x in the 3000m. And I am not allowed to call his 27.27 bad, because it would have been good for many other runners!? We are talking about a guy that claims he can do better in the 10k than in the 3k where he has done 7.17! -Give me a break! (And are you going to complain now because I write 3k and not 3000m..?)

Who could lap Moen in a 10000m? Well, I think Aregawi, Kiplimo, Barega, Kejelcha, Gebrhiwet (in addition to the two you mentioned) could come so close to 26.11 that they could lap Moen who is a one time hitter in 27.24… Bunch? Do you want us to discuss the word in some ten posts..?

Lastly: Jakob is a (at least coming) WR contender in the 10k/10000m -do you think it’s something to brag about that he is 4 sec behind a countryman that potentially could have been lapped by 7 Africans or more…?

If you suffer when you read my posts you are free to block me, or not reading my posts.

I don’t treat Jakob’s remarks as they are meticulously statements -I agree that they aren’t, and I have stressed that there are lack of information from him, and that some of his statements are contradictory. But it is interesting, IMO, that a repeated statement, “HM is my best event” lugs a little for now…

You can theorise as much as you want about the “analogy”. -But it seems to be empiric that some athletes both set WR’s in their main event and a neighbouring (e.g 200 and 400m, but also 3000 and 5000m) whereas some only in their main event.

I too think Jakob could have done 12.45 that day. And I’m not making a big deal out of this gap thing -just curious why Jakob did that in two 5000meters….

Well, it was “an unimportant clown race” to me, and obviously not to Jakob. But aside of that I agree with you in what you are saying here.

Yes, a plausible explanation. Both the English and the Swedish commentators thought Jakob was dropped, however. But I can’t totally forget that he did the same in WC u20 2018, and ask if there were a common pattern…

he definitely didn't get dropped in the 2018 race. he was far behind the pack from the first or second lap on, when they were not running a hot pace. the first K was 2:38, which is 13:10 pace. the second k was a 2:43.xx, over 13:35 pace. it was clearly a conscious decision on his part. what he was doing, I don't know, but it seemed to be part of a plan.

might have cost him the win having to drop a 3 seconds faster lap with just around 1600 to go, in a race that ended up having a very fast final 600.

live and learn.