I have been self coached 52 years and would love to support you , write plans, or answer questions?? sharing what i have learned...Keep It Simple.. I learned from Frank Shorter and a great Olympian in Reno......basically ...I don't taper, love my training, long run (pace not important), mile repeats progressively getting faster and easier, short speed work....recovery miles....hills, 60-70 miles / week...for marathon or 50 for shorter races....funny my buddy was coached by Al Lawrence and his picture was in those books:)
I am very intrigued with Jan Olbrechts ideas, which suggest that pretty much all training between marathon to 3k pace should be avoided most times during s year, because it will prevent long term aerobic developement.
This is pretty much the opposite to what most others do. Most do some of these workouts every week.
Olbrecht would be to only do these workouts 6-8 weeks before competition and argues that they will improve the utilization of the aerobic capacity/endurance, rather than improve or elevate it.
My interpretation of Olbrecht philosophy is that during, except during the last 6-8 weeks before competition, one will train 4-10 hours per week depending on ability.
Every week: easy tempo intervals slightly slower than marathon pace. Example, 4-6 x 2K /60sec rest at marathon pace +10-15 seconds per kilometer.
Moderately fast distance runs (70-75% 5k pace)
recocery run (65% 5k pace)
Every other week: touch on anaerobic capacity to keep it at an reasonably high level. Example session would be 5 x (150m-1000m) /2min rest, where 150m is run close to max effort and then 1000m slightly slower than marathon pace.
Every third week: Threshold session, for example 6-10 x 1K /60sec rest at LT pace, to keep in touch with aerobic power and lactate clearence.
6-8 weeks before competition: drop most anaerobic capacity workouts and increase volume, to lower the anaerobic capacity (if you are a distance runner). Increase frequency of threshold/vo2max workouts (focusing on race pace). Still do the easy interval sessions most weeks.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
I ran in HS so I have a basic understanding. But from listening to number of podcasts, I've gotten to the point where if you aren't doing like 30 miles a week of running so like 6 miles per 5 days. It really doesn't matter for distance running just run then occasionally do some mile or 1k reps and maybe a tempo / race simulation run that's about it. I don't have the time / energy / or really desire to do more than that while working so any training plan doesn't really help.
If you are wanting to do more like 40 or 50 miles plus then maybe some training plan will help but for hobby jogging it isn't that important / no magic bullet.
You have some insane workouts for how slow you are in races. Maybe start with stop racing your workouts?
Yep. I got that, pretty much after 2 seasons of no coaching and training quite wrong. I'd base build really good and then just jump straight into gutting myself with VO2Max workouts every time, many back to back, and burn out over the course of two months before I got to race.
So yes I've heard that and it is absolutely correct and this is what I'm going to fix. But anyhow, I'm not exactly a hobby jogger to all of the people who didn't really read up my original post extensively... "first get to 30 miles per week" breh I'm well into the volume of hitting 70mpw and going 60mpw for a month during base. Overdoing the VO2Max work as the season goes leads me to drop my mileage to ~45mpw which just leads to everything falling apart.
Martinl, Jan Olbrechts seems like a decent basic training method but summarizing it as "nothing between 3k to marathon" is misleading when right under you put threshold workouts. But it's super unconventional still having so little threshold training so not sure about it and it is not very popular. I'd probably try Norwegian method of high threshold volume first.
dalemagnin - that's cool, I might reach out (I think your website is at the top of search results for your poster name?) after the first few weeks of training with my own mixed Daniels/Tinman data driven method for a bit, careful to not overdo the VO2Max zones and get in quality volume while just doing threshold and then fast R pace work as my two workouts spaced out. And also real long run focus since I stopped doing long runs through when I'd be gutting VO2Max workouts too.
Martinl, Jan Olbrechts seems like a decent basic training method but summarizing it as "nothing between 3k to marathon" is misleading when right under you put threshold workouts. But it's super unconventional still having so little threshold training so not sure about it and it is not very popular. I'd probably try Norwegian method of high threshold volume first.
The problem (for many people) with the norwegian method, is that to balance all threshold training, you have to run approx. 12 hours per week, were everything except the threshold sessions is very easy, recovery runs.
And if Olbrechts theory is correct, you will quickly experience a good progress in fitness, due to greater utilization of aerobic Capacity and then reach a plateau because the threshold training prevents long term aerobic developement.
Your are abolutely right, it is wrong to summarize olbrechts method as "nothing beteween marathon and 3k pace training". He suggest that one should touch on this type of training very sparingly during base phase and then primarly focusing on it a couple of weeks before race.
What I think is good with Olbrechts method is that all sessions are targeted to develop either the aerobic or anaerobic energy systems, not just throwing in a ton of volume with slow recovery runs. He think that most recreational runners biggest mistake is over reaching with to much volume and to hard sessions. This will result in a plateau were the athlete doesn't reach his/her potential.
The problem (for many people) with the norwegian method, is that to balance all threshold training, you have to run approx. 12 hours per week, were everything except the threshold sessions is very easy, recovery runs.
I've been reading up on SirPoc's modification to the Norwegian Method, using Singles at Sub-Threshold instead of Double Threshold, and I have to admit it's been growing on me.
It's monotonous, but it's basically 3 quality sub-threshold days, 1 long run, 3 EASY easy days, and repeat. It actually sounds quite like Olbrechts theory. It's not literal hard threshold, it's about 90% threshold, a good sub-threshold state found commonly at around half marathon paces, sometimes slower sometimes faster depending on length of rep, and with short recoveries. (ie 20x400 @ 10k pace with 30s rest, or 8x1k @ 10mi pace with 60s rest, or 4x2k @ HM pace with 60s, all can get you to the state of sub-threshold).
Race weeks, just enter the race and use it as a workout, no need to taper hugely since the workouts shouldn't be particularly hard or draining. Just slowly chip away and improve at fitness and strength, and if building up more add small increments of time/0.5mi to easy days, or add a rep to the sub-threshold work.
It seems to be what the non-professional Ingebrigtsen does and also being a modification of Norwegian method with doubles explains how Jakob seems to be in pretty solid shape year-round and race so often.
BUT! I do intend to improve my 1500m speed, for which this method alone might not be the best. SirPoc doesn't do x-factor workouts like repetitions or hills, and to improve the 1500m I would have to think about adding at least the occasional hills and hard strides/short reps. I will see.
Firstly, a lot of people will follow these famous training theroise the norweigion, Daniels etc...
So unless you are some generational talent you are unlikely to become the best doing what everyone else is. Therefore the joy of being self coached or having a personal coach is to experiment on yourself and take a chance on some reasonable but less well know training theories
Arthur Lydiard is one of the best examples of the self coached runner. He explored training, on his own, experimenting on himself, without anyone guiding him, except for a book on physiology.
The coaches of his era thought he was crazy. A few neighborhood boys started tagging along with him and became Olympic champions.
This is actually very similar to the "Easy interval method" by Klaas Lok. I have read Daniels, 80/20, Pfitz, Hudson, Hanssons, ... and Easy interval method was the only one which game me a completely new perspective on training. I don't follow completely, but I have incorporated some ideas and noticed significant progress. I strongly recommend reading it.
The problem (for many people) with the norwegian method, is that to balance all threshold training, you have to run approx. 12 hours per week, were everything except the threshold sessions is very easy, recovery runs.
I've been reading up on SirPoc's modification to the Norwegian Method, using Singles at Sub-Threshold instead of Double Threshold, and I have to admit it's been growing on me.
It's monotonous, but it's basically 3 quality sub-threshold days, 1 long run, 3 EASY easy days, and repeat. It actually sounds quite like Olbrechts theory. It's not literal hard threshold, it's about 90% threshold, a good sub-threshold state found commonly at around half marathon paces, sometimes slower sometimes faster depending on length of rep, and with short recoveries. (ie 20x400 @ 10k pace with 30s rest, or 8x1k @ 10mi pace with 60s rest, or 4x2k @ HM pace with 60s, all can get you to the state of sub-threshold).
Race weeks, just enter the race and use it as a workout, no need to taper hugely since the workouts shouldn't be particularly hard or draining. Just slowly chip away and improve at fitness and strength, and if building up more add small increments of time/0.5mi to easy days, or add a rep to the sub-threshold work.
It seems to be what the non-professional Ingebrigtsen does and also being a modification of Norwegian method with doubles explains how Jakob seems to be in pretty solid shape year-round and race so often.
BUT! I do intend to improve my 1500m speed, for which this method alone might not be the best. SirPoc doesn't do x-factor workouts like repetitions or hills, and to improve the 1500m I would have to think about adding at least the occasional hills and hard strides/short reps. I will see.
Although the Norwegian singles method doesn’t utilize strides, I don’t see why you can’t add them. On the easy day after the long run, you could do short, 6-8s hill sprints with full 3+ minute recovery. On the other easy days, you could do fast strides. You can do some strides before and after the workouts. A few people in the Strava group have run mile PBs off this method. Maybe if you’re really at the elite level, this method wouldn’t work. But I bet you’d be surprised how well you could run a mile off this method with strides and hill sprints and lifting added in.
I really enjoyed the book 'Run Faster' by Brad Hudson, there are some sample plans in there but it's more about the philosophy of training and adapting the plan over time. It's more of a canova-like philosophy of increasing race specificity over time, with a focus on achievable workouts and sustainable growth, vs hammering huge hero workouts etc. it's more focused on the 5k to the marathon though.
Hudson's book did a lot for me in terms of clarifying the components to include in "general" training, and then how to (relatively) quickly transition that into some specificity for a race (or series of races) in a really sustainable way. I also remember Craig Mottram (coached by Nic Bideau) saying something along the lines of how they trained in a "general" way as much as possible to stack fitness, knowing that they could switch to some more specificity and be ready to really rock-and-roll in 6 weeks.
If you want to coach yourself, start with this idea - run a lot, sometimes run fast.
From there, refine it to the old Frank Shorter(?) idea - one long run and two workouts each week, with as much mileage in between as you can (reasonably) handle. Your mind, body and life situation will dictate what's reasonable, so roll with it.
For those two workouts per week, when you are not in race-prep mode, keep most of the work you do outside the band of paces that are close to your most common race distances, and be sure to hit paces on both sides of those common race distances - that way, when you are in race-prep mode (within 6 weeks of a race you are targeting?), you go into it with the stamina to handle the workload and the speed/mechanics to handle the pace.
On the stamina side, include workouts like progression runs, tempo runs, threshold reps, 8k-12k reps/fartlek (CV?), etc. A personal favorite is a fartlek with short "on" segments (like 30 seconds) and longer "off" segments (like 3 minutes) where the offs are not slow, and progress within the workout (easy run pace, then moderate run pace, then "steady", etc).
On the speed side, include sessions that include real speed/mechanics/power work like short steep hill sprints, full speed short sprints, etc. Unless in race-prep mode, I would stay away from stuff like 400m repeats at mile pace as that is more anaerobic capacity work than true speed - include those sort of reps when prepping for an appropriate race!
When you do start prepping for a target race, incorporate more paces and reps that are closer to that race pace. Start by subbing some in for some of the volume of a "general" workout, and phase more in from there. Progress things in a logical way by extending the reps and/or shortening the rest. Since you're the one doing the workouts, you will quickly develop a sense of what works for you.
Very nice post about Olbrecht's ideas. It reminds me of belgian coach Tim Moriau. The schedule you mentioned is very similar to the one prescribed by this coach. He has good success with his athletes from 5k to marathon (Kimeli sub13, Ringer sub2h06). Easy to moderate running everyday with a weekly session of sub M pace intervals or anaerobic capacity workout. Volume is moderate with almost no hard workout until the few weeks before the race. He wants to avoid conventional threshold training between M pace and T pace. Paces are a bit slower or a bit faster than this zone.
If you are asking this question it means you need a coach!
This is said as a self coached person. Most people need a coach.. I also don't have time to coach many others. People who are questioning what is the best methodology and can't find it on their own should get a coach.
I've been wondering whether there is something you can read that would generally work best to train by, or whether multiple different popularly released methods (Jack Daniels, Lydiard, etc) work well for different people.
Is it just that you have to try all different kinds of plans, or is there a general recommendation, like speedier people do XXX or more aerobic people do YYY?
Or is it really just to figure it out on your own, get experience the hard way and experiment on your own to find out what works for you.
Things I've read and considered and trained by:
5-pace training by Mark Tosques (worked reasonably well in high school to pick workouts and then insert random easy days and races in the middle when our coach was poor, but trying to get better now - I got obsessed with running 6x800m at goal 3200m pace in my senior year though and it burnt me out too just like Self Coached Runner - was able to average 2:24s but PR was only 9:50 in the final race again lol)
The Self Coached Runner (Al Lawrence, following the training in this plan to the letter burnt me out with the crazy back to back workouts but I was doing stuff I didn't think was possible in training, averaging 5x800 in 2:20 day after 10 miles @ 6:00 and a few days after 3x1600 in sub 5:00 - but I hit the wall following the plan before getting to race and never performed - did a sucky 9:50 3200m time trial with huge positive split - so not for me).
I've recently read Jack Daniels' Running Formula, Mark Coogan - similar methodologies, and plan on starting them (mostly Daniels with some Coogan hill workouts) next season. Sounds like it would fit me better than gutting myself in workouts and working on volume and quality at length rather than flooding myself with lactic reps.
But I've noticed Daniels seems to lack sprint training like hills and speed stuff, although maybe running a lot at Rep pace is enough. And also lacks pace specific training (though his ideology is that it's not necessary and more efficient to do other paces) and I sometimes feel like it lacks volume at I or T pace? Dunno, need to go through it first to feel it out.
So anyway, any other plans or training methodologies I should look into? I'm interested in learning to create flexible plans to improve and not just gut myself and overtrain for no results, which I do a lil too often. (I like to think I'm very mentally strong and it shows in the work ethic and loving to study the methodology and overperforming Stylish Athletic Shoes in workouts but it leads to overthinking/doing the wrong thing if I studied wrong and then having a gassed tank often come race days).
For a self-coached runner, the best training methodology involves a well-rounded and structured approach that balances consistency, variety, and recovery. Start by setting realistic goals based on your current fitness level and desired outcomes, whether it's improving endurance, speed, or completing a specific race. Incorporate a mix of training runs, including long runs for endurance, interval training for speed, and tempo runs for sustained effort. Cross-training with activities like cycling or swimming can enhance fitness while reducing the risk of overuse injuries.
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