I'm sorry you find it so offensive. I'm trying to figure out what I can do besides just saying "run more" to help every member of my team succeed. Clearly you disagree, and your opinion is noted. If you have anything new to add, I'm happy to hear it.
Yes, clearly I'm having them run more, as well.
I do have some things to add
- look at the latest research about running economy for inexperienced runners. It's contested but leans toward showing that focusing on technique is negligible for performance and not worth it unless they're getting inured (1). Also, it can even increase injury risk along the chain when you 'require' someone to change their natural gait
- consider what is your objective for a 27 minute 5k teenager? if it's not - 'helping them find a love of some form of excercise they'll continue after we part ways' then what is it? what are you achieving by "requiring" good technique during drills?
- consider your use of terms like "getting runners to RUN", "requiring", "I've started really enforcing good technique" and what it is doing to the kids in your charge. I've been a teacher in my past (just Maths not sports) and these terms are warning flags to me.
- even your use of the term "if we could...unlock some new potential for the girls, I'd love to do that for them" is odd. a) they already have the potential b) this isn't about you.
Results: Fifty-one studies (n = 1115 participants) were included. Most spatiotemporal outcomes showed trivial and non-significant associations with RE: contact time r = - 0.02 (95% confidence interval [CI] - 0.15 to 0.12); flight time r = 0.11 (- 0.09 to 0.32); stride time r = 0.01 (- 0.8 to 0.50); duty factor r = - 0.06 (- 0.18 to 0.06); stride length r = 0.12 (- 0.15 to 0.38), and swing time r = 0.12 (- 0.13 to 0.36). A higher cadence showed a small significant association with a lower oxygen/energy cost (r = - 0.20 [- 0.35 to - 0.05]). A smaller vertical displacement and higher vertical and leg stiffness showed significant moderate associations with lower oxygen/energy cost (r = 0.35, - 0.31, - 0.28, respectively). Ankle, knee, and hip angles at initial contact, midstance or toe-off as well as their range of motion, peak vertical ground reaction force, mechanical work variables, and electromyographic activation were not significantly associated with RE, although potentially relevant trends were observed for some outcomes.
I appreciate the thought out post with citations. On the "red flags," I'm a teacher as well. I require punctuation and capital letters. In running, I require runners to warm up and cool down at least 10 minutes (although our very beginning runners are allowed to walk their cool down). I require good effort/technique on all exercises we do. Drills with good posture and technique are some of the most specific core work inexperienced runners/athletes can get. We have a lot of positive, supportive elements to our program to go along with the "demands."
Our objective is to make every athlete feel pride in what they've accomplished. When I see someone stuck at 27 minutes for a couple of years with glaring technique errors, I start to wonder if there's more that can be done. When I made the post, I was thinking more in terms of strengthening or mobility work that could gradually change the stride rather than micromanaging every run they go on.
Technique is overrated. If they are fast, who cares what it looks like. Running is not a jury sport, you don't get points for a nice technique.
These are not fast kids. They're girls running 27+ minutes, one of whom clocked 90 seconds for an all-out 400, while still using a shuffling stride. We do max velocity hill sprints most weeks during track, and they shuffle with a fast cadence. I've starting really enforcing good technique during drills because I noticed they weren't getting knees up during a-skips or high knees. They're capable of doing that, so I'm hoping with some time the skill will transfer. I've thought about doing wickets (not just for this group, but for everyone) during early track season. I know I'm not going to suddenly turn them into elite athletes, but I would love for them to learn to run with proper technique and drop some time.
Enforcing? Do you mean providing instruction, feedback and opportunities to repractice?
You would love for the learn to run with proper technique? Well, you are the coach so coach them.
Who tf cares about 'enforcing' technique for 27 minute girls?! This is for 5km presumably?
Just leave them be and hope they enjoy their running.
This thread is insane
A decent HS coach should care about all his/hers runners, not just the elite athletes. Giving them what they need to succeed doesn't take time away from the better runners.
I'm a high school coach, and I have several runners who have been on the team for a few years and have form that wouldn't get them disqualified from a racewalking competition. Overall, I'm of the mindset that mileage fixes technique, and I've see that for a lot of my newer runners, but I'm not sure what to do with these kids who don't lift their knees or bend their legs, even when racing an 800. Has anyone found anything that works?
It probably isn’t changeable. But if you insist, do form drills(try the Ethiopian warm up drills). But reality is some people shuffle do to their natural joint torque and tendon elasticity
I have had the same issue, mostly with girls. In all my years, I never got any to improve it much, if at all, until this season. I just told her why it was so inefficient, and how she would get more power with better form. It worked. I was shocked!
Did she get more power and improve significantly?
She is coming along well. Needs a good track season to follow her XC season. Her base was so bad, we spent a good portion of the season working on her endurance. I was thrilled the other day when she went through the first mile close to her 1600 PR, and was able to finish the 5K with a decent time for her. She is definitely a project, but she wants to do well. Ask me again next year, after a year of actual training.
I'm a high school coach, and I have several runners who have been on the team for a few years and have form that wouldn't get them disqualified from a racewalking competition. Overall, I'm of the mindset that mileage fixes technique, and I've see that for a lot of my newer runners, but I'm not sure what to do with these kids who don't lift their knees or bend their legs, even when racing an 800. Has anyone found anything that works?
It probably isn’t changeable. But if you insist, do form drills(try the Ethiopian warm up drills). But reality is some people shuffle do to their natural joint torque and tendon elasticity
This^. Salazar was also a known shuffler back in the day, and he was doing fine. Don't mess up with their natural running form and focus on the mileage instead.
That said, maybe getting them to do some sort of strength training. That's always great from an injury prevention standpoint.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
I appreciate the thought out post with citations. On the "red flags," I'm a teacher as well. I require punctuation and capital letters. In running, I require runners to warm up and cool down at least 10 minutes (although our very beginning runners are allowed to walk their cool down). I require good effort/technique on all exercises we do. Drills with good posture and technique are some of the most specific core work inexperienced runners/athletes can get. We have a lot of positive, supportive elements to our program to go along with the "demands."
Our objective is to make every athlete feel pride in what they've accomplished. When I see someone stuck at 27 minutes for a couple of years with glaring technique errors, I start to wonder if there's more that can be done. When I made the post, I was thinking more in terms of strengthening or mobility work that could gradually change the stride rather than micromanaging every run they go on.
I don't think you should be coaching kids. Find something that you're actually good at.
I appreciate the thought out post with citations. On the "red flags," I'm a teacher as well. I require punctuation and capital letters. In running, I require runners to warm up and cool down at least 10 minutes (although our very beginning runners are allowed to walk their cool down). I require good effort/technique on all exercises we do. Drills with good posture and technique are some of the most specific core work inexperienced runners/athletes can get. We have a lot of positive, supportive elements to our program to go along with the "demands."
Our objective is to make every athlete feel pride in what they've accomplished. When I see someone stuck at 27 minutes for a couple of years with glaring technique errors, I start to wonder if there's more that can be done. When I made the post, I was thinking more in terms of strengthening or mobility work that could gradually change the stride rather than micromanaging every run they go on.
I don't think you should be coaching kids. Find something that you're actually good at.
I'm not sure where you would reach that conclusion from anything I wrote, but I appreciate the thought!
Different things work for different people, but here are a couple things that might help some.
1) Video them. Show the videos on a large screen. A few may be able to change when they actually see what's going on, particularly when they see what the "good" runners are doing.
2) If you have a safe surface to do it on, have them run (not sprint, not jog) some 100s barefoot. Heel-first running is less comfortable if you're barefoot, and this could get some of them out of that kind of running that looks like their feet are velcroed to the ground. Of course, videoing is possible here.
3) Try explaining that running (all of track & field, really) is an elbows & knees activity, not hands and feet. If they lead with the knee (doesn't have to be a high knee, actually) and the foot follows, the foot will land more nearly under the center of gravity; will more likely be moving backward when it lands, reducing the braking effect; and shift more of the weight forward on the foot: The foot may still land heel first, but lightly, with more of the weight carried farther forward on the foot.
4) Continue to work on core (which is not just abs). I find that many shufflers have poor posture.
Some are visual learners, and the video thing might be the biggest help for them. Get it on a large screen, not a phone screen, so they can really see what they're doing. And what the more efficient runners are doing.
I appreciate the thought out post with citations. On the "red flags," I'm a teacher as well. I require punctuation and capital letters. In running, I require runners to warm up and cool down at least 10 minutes (although our very beginning runners are allowed to walk their cool down). I require good effort/technique on all exercises we do. Drills with good posture and technique are some of the most specific core work inexperienced runners/athletes can get. We have a lot of positive, supportive elements to our program to go along with the "demands."
Our objective is to make every athlete feel pride in what they've accomplished. When I see someone stuck at 27 minutes for a couple of years with glaring technique errors, I start to wonder if there's more that can be done. When I made the post, I was thinking more in terms of strengthening or mobility work that could gradually change the stride rather than micromanaging every run they go on.
I don't think you should be coaching kids. Find something that you're actually good at.
agreed. what on earth is going on in this thread. this guy has no idea how poorly he's coming across
- although our very beginning runners are allowed to walk their cool down
so you don't allow kids who want to walk, to walk? what do you do, shout at them to get back running or something?
- I require good effort/technique on all exercises we do
or what? these are 27 minute kids and as referenced above, a focus on technique drills may actually be more harm than good. the focus on "I require" is just awful and not kid-focused
- Drills with good posture and technique are some of the most specific core work inexperienced runners/athletes can get
specific work for kids who want to run, is running
- When I see someone stuck at 27 minutes for a couple of years with glaring technique errors
if a kid is stuck at 27 minutes 5k for several years "enforcing" technical drills isn't going to help. maybe look closer to home.
Maybe not a popular name to mention these days, but Alberto Salazar had horrible “technique”, he was a shuffler extraordinaire yet dominated the marathon for a few years.
- look at the latest research about running economy for inexperienced runners. It's contested but leans toward showing that focusing on technique is negligible for performance and not worth it unless they're getting inured (1). Also, it can even increase injury risk along the chain when you 'require' someone to change their natural gait
- consider what is your objective for a 27 minute 5k teenager? if it's not - 'helping them find a love of some form of excercise they'll continue after we part ways' then what is it? what are you achieving by "requiring" good technique during drills?
- consider your use of terms like "getting runners to RUN", "requiring", "I've started really enforcing good technique" and what it is doing to the kids in your charge. I've been a teacher in my past (just Maths not sports) and these terms are warning flags to me.
- even your use of the term "if we could...unlock some new potential for the girls, I'd love to do that for them" is odd. a) they already have the potential b) this isn't about you.
Results: Fifty-one studies (n = 1115 participants) were included. Most spatiotemporal outcomes showed trivial and non-significant associations with RE: contact time r = - 0.02 (95% confidence interval [CI] - 0.15 to 0.12); flight time r = 0.11 (- 0.09 to 0.32); stride time r = 0.01 (- 0.8 to 0.50); duty factor r = - 0.06 (- 0.18 to 0.06); stride length r = 0.12 (- 0.15 to 0.38), and swing time r = 0.12 (- 0.13 to 0.36). A higher cadence showed a small significant association with a lower oxygen/energy cost (r = - 0.20 [- 0.35 to - 0.05]). A smaller vertical displacement and higher vertical and leg stiffness showed significant moderate associations with lower oxygen/energy cost (r = 0.35, - 0.31, - 0.28, respectively). Ankle, knee, and hip angles at initial contact, midstance or toe-off as well as their range of motion, peak vertical ground reaction force, mechanical work variables, and electromyographic activation were not significantly associated with RE, although potentially relevant trends were observed for some outcomes.
I appreciate the thought out post with citations. On the "red flags," I'm a teacher as well. I require punctuation and capital letters. In running, I require runners to warm up and cool down at least 10 minutes (although our very beginning runners are allowed to walk their cool down). I require good effort/technique on all exercises we do. Drills with good posture and technique are some of the most specific core work inexperienced runners/athletes can get. We have a lot of positive, supportive elements to our program to go along with the "demands."
Our objective is to make every athlete feel pride in what they've accomplished. When I see someone stuck at 27 minutes for a couple of years with glaring technique errors, I start to wonder if there's more that can be done. When I made the post, I was thinking more in terms of strengthening or mobility work that could gradually change the stride rather than micromanaging every run they go on.
Speaking from experience, sometimes girls get stuck in high school at a given time because their bodies are changing. This happened to both me and my sister. She was an 18 minute 5K runner, while I was much slower, so it can happen to runners of all speeds. My mile time actually slowed by 30 seconds while I "grew into" my more curvy body. Over the next year, I was able to drop those 30 seconds again, plus 15 or 20 more.
It's just something you need to be aware of with female high school athletes. In most cases, even if they go backwards for a while, if they stick with it, they'll push past the plateau and make gains. But they may be plateauing for a while for reasons unrelated to shuffling.
It probably isn’t changeable. But if you insist, do form drills(try the Ethiopian warm up drills). But reality is some people shuffle do to their natural joint torque and tendon elasticity
This^. Salazar was also a known shuffler back in the day, and he was doing fine. Don't mess up with their natural running form and focus on the mileage instead.
That said, maybe getting them to do some sort of strength training. That's always great from an injury prevention standpoint.
Salazar was the first person I thought of when this thread was posted. I believe Jack Daniels said he was the second most "efficient" (running economy) he ever tested. In my experience as a tester... runners with limited knee lift and low back kick tend to be more efficient on the whole...
But they also usually aren't great sprinters or kickers. Lasse Viren was an exception. He could sprint.
Unfortunately you’re dealing with generation whose general level of fitness is very low. Instead of running around outside for their developing years they are much more sedentary and parents drive them to all activities. As result muscle strength and flexibility are poor. Drills and dynamic stretches can help but unlikely you will see dramatic results.
This^. Salazar was also a known shuffler back in the day, and he was doing fine. Don't mess up with their natural running form and focus on the mileage instead.
That said, maybe getting them to do some sort of strength training. That's always great from an injury prevention standpoint.
Salazar was the first person I thought of when this thread was posted. I believe Jack Daniels said he was the second most "efficient" (running economy) he ever tested. In my experience as a tester... runners with limited knee lift and low back kick tend to be more efficient on the whole...
But they also usually aren't great sprinters or kickers. Lasse Viren was an exception. He could sprint.
I actually run like that. Also, the longer the distance, the better I perform. My 10k PR is 2*5k + less than 1 min. I've been told by many I run without power. Looks like I am just jogging even when I'm running at 5-mins pace. I tried to change that and got that elongated stride. I did look a whole lot better, but guess what? I got knee pain not long after, and I actually got slower.
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